AA in home game - staddled and 3-bet pot. (1 Viewer)

[Eriks]

Hey guys.

Here’s a fun hand from our latest home game. The group have played together for many years and I have extensive history with villain.

He is loose aggressive, plays a lot of pots with a great variety of holdings. He is positionally aware however and will not play super wide from oop. He is sticky and tricky and does not like to give up pots too easily. He likes to put his opponents to the test. Bluffs too much in my opinion but nothing too crazy.

He can make some strange plays such as raising weakish top pairs/middle pairs on dry boards but can generally navigate well thereafter.

He will generally play good draws fast. He can slowplay nutted hands but usually not on wet boards.

I’m considered the best player at the table. I have a pretty solid image although they generally give me a lot more bluffs in situations than I actually have. I play pretty loose and splash around but will usually have the goods in big pots. I have been caught running huge bluffs a few times over the years and I guess those have made an impression.

On to the hand:

we’re only 4-handed this time, playing a dealer’s choice of hold em/crazy pinapple/plo.
Blinds are 2/4 swedish krona (=$0.2/0.4). We all bought in for 1k. I have been making a bunch of second best hands and have rebought for another 500 and villain has lost a buy-in with set over set vs another player and has rebought for another 1000.

Texas hold em

Hero co/utg ~950
Villain sb covers

I straddle to 8, button folds and villain makes it 27 from the sb
I look down at:



and make it 87. Villain pauses for 10-15 seconds before making the call. Flop comes:

(174)

villain quickly checks and I bet 125. He thinks for a short time and then makes it 290. I have a little more than 570 on top of the 290.

Do you jam or call? If you’re calling, how do you proceed on club/connecting/blank turns? Do you play anything else differently? Bet sizing?

 

[colter ripton]

Action seems fine so far. Definatley jam here.

 

[detroitdad]

Action seems fine so far. Definatley jam here.

concur

 

[CraigT78]

Jam and have rebuy ready.

 

[MatB]

Someone's losing their stack in this hand. It might be you.

But for sure, there is no folding here.

 

[MatB]

I say that, but OP said the villain paused before calling the initial bet.

I'm going with Villain having K9 hh.

RIP OP.

 

[Pinball]

Jam!

Pure guess:

AcKc Top pair Top kicker with nut flush draw because in my opinion he should have folded 88 and 99 pre and KK would have been a jam preflop.

 

[Legend5555]

You can't fold given stack sizes and this board texture. Calling seems bad because you will have only about a pot bet on turn and are likely just going to face a jam. Plus there are lots of bad cards on turn. If he fast plays most draws, then there are just too many bluffs in his range for you to be doing anything other than just jamming.

I'd have made it 100-110 preflop to further deny any set mining odds and make getting it in post flop even more trivial. 66-75% c-bet given the board texture seems good to me.

 

[Anthony Martino]

 

[Eriks]

Thanks guys. Looks like eveyone likes jaming over calling, especially @Anthony Martino

I think his range for raising the flop is something like:

K9s/KT+/99/88/98s/76s/FDs/JTs

would expect him to 4-bet KK almost always and most of the time with AK. He may or may not fold K9s pf, I’m not sure (might be a good reason to go a bit bigger like @Legend5555 suggested). He is not folding 88 or 99 pre and probably not 67s, 98s or JTs.

He is probably not calling a jam with a naked straight draw and possible not with non-nut fds, except something like QT/QJ of clubs that also has a gutter. He will definitely snapcall w KT+ of clubs. Not sure how often he manages to talk himself into a fold with KT/KJ/KQo.

I am realizing as I’m typing this, that I probably have a pretty clear jam.

 

[MatB]

But....... if you really felt like he had the goods. A made hand. Then calling isn't terrible.

Yes, you should be jamming. But if you have a good read on villain, and you go with your gut. Just call.

Also.... Your hand doesnt improve except with a back door flush draw, and maybe a paired board. (if they dont have 2 pr already)

So, if you are a really good player here. FOLD


LoL. i went full Polk on this one.. " so you can jam here, or calling is ok. and then i dont mind a fold also"

 

[Eriks]

LoL. i went full Polk on this one.. " so you can jam here, or calling is ok. and then i dont mind a fold also"

Haha, you sure did. Isn’t this why we love this game, you can make a case for anything depending on a multitude of variables

 

[Eriks]

So anyway, I did end up jaming. He took a good 5 minutes to reluctantly call with his . I figured that means he will sometimes fold his KT/KJ and that got me thinking about other lines.

amazingly I scooped after we ran turn and river 3 times.

thanks everyone!

 

[Legend5555]

So anyway, I did end up jaming. He took a good 5 minutes to reluctantly call with his . I figured that means he will sometimes fold his KT/KJ and that got me thinking about other lines.

amazingly I scooped after we ran turn and river 3 times.

thanks everyone!

Yeah....

If he's going to be check raising just top pair in these spots then I'm not sure how you ever fold hands stronger than top pair to this person ever. If he's going to have that wide a flop raising range, then he is just going to be hemorrhaging money.

 

[Eriks]

No I agree, folding was never an option.

 

[Frogzilla]

I slightly favor the flat vs 3-bet jam to keep his bluffs in there...but I didn’t expect him to show up with KJ like ever. That’s a pretty bad check raise on that flop

 

[Legend5555]

I slightly favor the flat vs 3-bet jam to keep his bluffs in there...but I didn’t expect him to show up with KJ like ever. That’s a pretty bad check raise on that flop

I hear what you're saying, but there are a few too many different draws that villain could have. So many turn cards are terrible that I'd rather not have to decide on what to do when one of those cards comes and I'm faced with a turn jam. Maybe lose some value by jamming, but jamming helps deny equity and eliminate a possibly annoying future decision.

I don't use solvers, so I'm just going on instinct. I imagine neither of the choices end up much different given the size this pot has grown to.

 

[Shaggy]

...but I didn’t expect him to show up with KJ like ever. That’s a pretty bad check raise on that flop

I think it’s a pretty bad pf call and flop call... but was the c/r really that bad? Obviously it was bad against AA, but was it bad against hero’s range?

 

[Legend5555]

I think it’s a pretty bad pf call and flop call... but was the c/r really that bad? Obviously it was bad against AA, but was it bad against hero’s range?

Maybe not, but is it a bet for value? Or is it turning top pair into a bluff? What can you get called by that isn't beating you or has a huge chunk of equity? If this check raise gets called and one of the million draw gets there, what do you do? You only have a pot sized bet left and are oop.

What if it doesn't get there? You got called still. So how happy are you? You going to jam turn on a blank? You get snap called by better, and all the hands you beat just fold probably.

This is exactly why you don't play big pots oop with hands like KJo.

 

[Frogzilla]

I think it’s a pretty bad pf call and flop call... but was the c/r really that bad? Obviously it was bad against AA, but was it bad against hero’s range?

I can’t really think of a worse hand to pull this with, too thin for value and way too strong to turn into a bluff. And KJ with the backdoors is a nice flop call. So from that perspective, how bad the check raise is vs how good a check call is, yes it’s horrendous

 

[Eriks]

I think it would be easier to make a case for a just call if the board was just slightly less wet. Let’s say same board but rainbow or maybe K95 w flushdraw.

Looking at it from his perspective I don’t think preflop is all that bad. Remember we’re only 4-handed and I certainly have some suited connector/QJs-type hands in my 3-betting range. Flop checkraise however I think is pretty bad. He should go into call mode targeting the bluffing part of my range.

 

[Eriks]

If we somehow land on a just call of his checkraise. Do we fold any turns if he jams. Another K?, a club?
Pot would be 758 and effective stacks 570

 

[Taghkanic]

You’ve got about one pot sized bet left here, right?

I think your choices are jam almost always, folding only if this player is never check-raising less than two pair or a combo draw. I wouldn’t ever call, unless I had some really specific read on the player... Say, if you think your opponent could check-raise with just a K or a weaker draw *and* will bluff the turn when he doesn’t improve.

You’re going to have basically the same decision on future streets, almost regardless of what card comes, only with more pressure to call, since after calling you’ll have a lot less than a pot sized bet left. You’re going to have to sigh-call the turn a ton, even if a scare card comes. You can get away from it on once in a while, I suppose, but I don’t see that as saving you much longterm.

It would be a little different if you had the Ac in your hand, but I’d jam and just live with the fact that you may be losing as much as half the time.

 

[Taghkanic]

(P.S. Didn’t see the results when I posted! I swears!)

 

[Taghkanic]

Maybe not, but is it a bet for value? Or is it turning top pair into a bluff? What can you get called by that isn't beating you or has a huge chunk of equity?

Some players spaz out when they flop top pair/decent kicker and they see a lot of draws on the board... betting it overly-aggressively to prevent the other guy from catching up, and to avoid a harder decision on future streets.

When hero jammed, he probably should have considered letting it go. But he’d committed himself with the check-raise, I guess.

 

[JustinInMN]

I slightly favor the flat vs 3-bet jam to keep his bluffs in there...but I didn’t expect him to show up with KJ like ever. That’s a pretty bad check raise on that flop

If we somehow land on a just call of his checkraise. Do we fold any turns if he jams. Another K?, a club?
Pot would be 758 and effective stacks 570

Given hero's stack size, I could go either way on the call v shove question on the flop. However, if we (as hero) call on this flop, we should NOT looking for excuses to fold the turn if villain bluffs as much as the original post describes. There is only one specific good reason to flat the flop, imo. It is soley to induce a bluff on the turn instead of risking villain finding a fold to our three bet shove on the flop. Maybe we can give ourselves permission to fold to a king on the turn, but anything else feels like an overfold to a frequent bluffer and we need to go with this hand with this villain for stacks.

Also worth noting, villain can have inferior holdings that could also shut down if the same draws get there. (I think villain's actual hand is a good example of this.) This actually makes the flat the flop line a little more risky.

It's just hard to put villain on a check-raise-fold hand, so it seems the easiest and surest way to get stacks to the middle is to simply jam the flop.

 

[Legend5555]

Some players spaz out when they flop top pair/decent kicker and they see a lot of draws on the board... betting it overly-aggressively to prevent the other guy from catching up, and to avoid a harder decision on future streets.

When hero jammed, he probably should have considered letting it go. But he’d committed himself with the check-raise, I guess.

For sure people just spaz. But that's more an exception, so my general analysis is going to assume that a player would not check raise just top pair.

I'm putting the questions out there to illustrate why in general check raising this type of hand generally doesn't lead to anything good happening against a decent player in the long term.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion. I haven't read the spoiler or any of the replies to speak of so I apologize if this is redundant.

Your description of the villain is interesting. It sounds like he is competent enough to avoid playing a weak hand out of position against (assuming your table image is accurate) what he believes is the best player. For that reason I think you can take all the 2-pair hands out of his range.

You didn't say if you have a history of 3 and 4-betting light preflop, so I'm going to assume the villain is giving you credit for a 4-bet-worthy holding.

His raise preflop was probably just an attempt to take the pot down right there with a strong yet speculative hand. Your reraise gave him pause and he probably briefly considered a fold, but his implied odds are good enough to at least take a flop.

I suspect he holds something like or . A set of 8's or 9's also makes sense.

In this situation, you've been check-raised after showing massive strength on 2 streets. You can release aces here, especially since you don't hold the . You have a one-pair hand with low odds of improvement if you're in a situation where you need to improve to win.

That said, there's a decent chance you have the best hand on this flop, so there's merit to sticking around. But if you're going to continue, all your chips are going into the middle at some point. If you flat the raise, Villain is almost guaranteed to jam any turn.

So there's no real merit to calling. If you're calling on this flop, you're calling it off on the turn.

In a low stakes game such as this, I'd just jam and hope for the best. If it's a higher stakes game that I'm not properly rolled for, I'd probably be more inclined to release and try to find a better spot to get it in.

****Just read the spoiler****

I don't hate the Villain's c/r on this flop... In a 4 handed game top pair/solid kicker is very strong. Calling it off after you've jammed though is pretty bad. Definitely add him to your 'do not bluff' list.

 

[Eriks]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion. I haven't read the spoiler or any of the replies to speak of so I apologize if this is redundant.

No problem, thank you for taking the time. It’s really great to receive so much input.

Your description of the villain is interesting. It sounds like he is competent enough to avoid playing a weak hand out of position against (assuming your table image is accurate) what he believes is the best player. For that reason I think you can take all the 2-pair hands out of his range.

You didn't say if you have a history of 3 and 4-betting light preflop, so I'm going to assume the villain is giving you credit for a 4-bet-worthy holding.

His raise preflop was probably just an attempt to take the pot down right there with a strong yet speculative hand. Your reraise gave him pause and he probably briefly considered a fold, but his implied odds are good enough to at least take a flop.

I suspect he holds something like or . A set of 8's or 9's also makes sense.

You’re probably right to assume his 2-pair combos are limited though I wouldn’t rule out 98s.

There is some light 3-betting going on (mostly on his part) but nothing too crazy.

In this situation, you've been check-raised after showing massive strength on 2 streets. You can release aces here, especially since you don't hold the . You have a one-pair hand with low odds of improvement if you're in a situation where you need to improve to win.

I actually think the fact that I don’t hold the should make me want to jam even more. Holding it takes away all of the NFDs he could be raising with making his range more weighted towards value.

I don't hate the Villain's c/r on this flop... In a 4 handed game top pair/solid kicker is very strong. Calling it off after you've jammed though is pretty bad. Definitely add him to your 'do not bluff' list.

I’m not a fan of his c/r unless he thinks he can profitably call a shove. I haven’t done any math but I suspect I would have to shove plenty of my draws for that to be the case. Him holding the takes away some of those: //

I definitely don’t think KJo is a fold pre 4-handed though but I would’ve c/c flop and then c/decided on the turn in his shoes.