AA+A on the flop, bad shove? (3 Viewers)

Basti

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Hey everyone,
I am curious what you guys think about this play:

The opponent played many suited hands at the table.
He called my 4-bet pre-flop with me having AA.
I hit AAA on the flop and was afraid of running into a flush post flop and decided to shove.
Should I have played it slower to get more money out of him or was it a correct play?

How would you have acted on the flop?
And what would you have done if another diamond hit on the turn?
If it would have been a rainbow flop I would have bet maybe 15-20 BB.

Greetings from Germany


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Hmm, it's close. You have 59 BB and there's 37.5 BB in the middle, so I don't hate just shoving. Betting small, like 1/4~1/2 pot then jamming the turn works better imo.

I will say, the reasoning of trying to scare off a flush draw is bad. You have a set of Aces, you want to bet the largest amount that you think they'll call. All I'd think about here is how to get all the money in. With 77BB to start the hand and a set on the flop going broke against a flush would still be the right way to play the hand, because you're making so much every time they don't have the flush.

I would probably bet ~10BB on the flop and jam literally any turn.
 
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So you think he called your 18BB 4-bet with Ks ?
Could be...but i'm always checking on that flop to induce action since you are OOP....or bet max half pot (30BB) if you want protection.
 
So you think he called your 18BB 4-bet with Ks ?
Could be...but i'm always checking on that flop to induce action since you are OOP....or bet max half pot if you want protection.
I think he would have called the 4-bet with many suited hands, he was a very loose and aggressive player playing most suited hands, maybe something like KQs
 
Hmm, it's close. You have 59 BB and there's 37.5 BB in the middle, so I don't hate just shoving. Betting small, like 1/4~1/2 pot then jamming the turn works as well too.

I will say, the reasoning of trying to scare off a flush draw is bad. You have a set of Aces, you want to bet the largest amount that you think they'll call. All I'd think about here is how to get all the money in. With 77BB to start the hand and a set on the flop going broke against a flush would still be the right way to play the hand, because you're making so much every time they don't have the flush.

I would probably bet ~10BB on the flop and jam literally any turn.
yeaaah I think what I can learn from this is that top set should never be scared of flush draws, ever (unless I'm in the bubble for life changing money maybe)
 
Looking at that board, what suited combo are you scared of? I hate the shove, it lets your opponent play perfectly against you very easily. Bet 15 BB instead, or check raise.

Edit: Ill soften it a bit, is your opponent calling 4bets with suited what? Ad is already out there. KQdd, calling 4bets? JTdd? QJdd? Those are really bad plays, you want those hands to keep paying you, dont be an OMC.
 
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Looking at that board, what suited combo are you scared of? I hate the shove, it lets your opponent play perfectly against you very easily. Bet 15 BB instead, or check raise.

Edit: Ill soften it a bit, is your opponent calling 4bets with suited what? Ad is already out there. KQdd, calling 4bets? JTdd? QJdd? Those are really bad plays, you want those hands to keep paying you, dont be an OMC.
In my mind I wanted to get rid of all flush draws, but I realize thats irrational
 
In my mind I wanted to get rid of all flush draws, but I realize thats irrational
GOOD! This is why we talk through these things. Opponents can smell that, they can easily fold when you are way way ahead, shove screams it. That same fear of not being ahead will prevent you from betting to represent a hand you don't have.

If you cant feel secure with top set on a board like that, take a second and think of situations where you will. Is it only A-8-3 rainbow? 4bets are polarizing, hes calling with far less, lots of AK/AQ but you block, so I see KK, QQ, perhaps TT.

not many suited connectors are making it there, and then even when they do far less of them will be diamonds, even then most times a 3rd diamond wont come.
 
GOOD! This is why we talk through these things. Opponents can smell that, they can easily fold when you are way way ahead, shove screams it. That same fear of not being ahead will prevent you from betting to represent a hand you don't have.

If you cant feel secure with top set on a board like that, take a second and think of situations where you will. Is it only A-8-3 rainbow? 4bets are polarizing, hes calling with far less, lots of AK/AQ but you block, so I see KK, QQ, perhaps TT.

not many suited connectors are making it there, and then even when they do far less of them will be diamonds, even then most times a 3rd diamond wont come.

My thought process should have been something like:
If he has 2 diamonds he has 9 outs minus the J, so 8x4 ~ 32% of hitting the potential flush, but then I have to reduce the 32% because it is more likely he has no suited diamonds, so probably way under 20% of him winning on the turn/river, so at this point I should just maximize my money
 
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My thought process should have been something like:
If he has 2 diamonds he has 9 outs minus the J, so 8x4 ~ 32% of hitting the potential flush, but then I have to reduce the 32% because it is more likely he has no suited diamonds, so probably way under 20% of him winning on the turn/river, so at this point I should just maximize my money
You have very little info other than he called a 4bet preflop. If we bomb it, everything folds except a great draw (and JJ I guess), and when the draw gets there we complain about luck when we ensure that we would lose the maximum lol
 
You have very little info other than he called a 4bet preflop. If we bomb it, everything folds except a great draw (and JJ I guess), and when the draw gets there we complain about luck when we ensure that we would lose the maximum lol
every time I saw his hand it was some kind of suited hand, but I just disregarded odds against him and got scared for no reason, even if he has a suited hand or even diamonds I should not be affected by that
 
No way am I shoving. I'm betting 1/3 pot to keep those drawing hands in when I'm 60 BB's deep. I can understand shoving if I have 10 or 15 BB left, but not 60. This is a tournament, right?
it's a small stakes cash game, I just always have BB on
 
Bombing flop with that board means opponent is unlikely to call as this was a 4-bet preflop since that screams a strong Ace.
Only hands may get here that continue in my mind are KQs, JJ, or the last A with wheel or broadway card. Hard for opponent to want to continue since they'd only have Ac possible.

Maybe could have gotten an extra 25% pot (15BB~) as opponent may call a small bet if they have some kind of straight or flush draw potential, though you pretty much guaranteed the pot after seeing the turn.
 
So your original thinking was,”I want to push and scare him away before he has a chance to catch up.” You’re essentially reducing his risk, which is the last thing you want.
But if you bet smaller, you give him a chance to make the error of chasing that flush. If he does happen to catch up, that’s poker. But if you can force him to keep calling when he shouldn’t, you’ll be way ahead with this opponent in the long run.
 
The days of thinking "I have to bet a enough to price him out" are long gone. That's not the way to maximize your return.

You need to think about all the types of hands your opponent could have and how best to play against all of them including the hands that are drawing nearly dead. And if you are playing against very smart players, then you have to worry about how you pay your entire range of hands as well. But in general, against most players, you really only need to focus on their range.

I'm this hand, he 3 bet and called a 4 bet. Absent any reads of him being a maniac, his range is likely something like 77-QQ, AK, AJs+, KQs, and maybe some smaller suited Aces. But since you have AA and there is an A on the flop. At best your opponent can have QQ, which won't love this board since you can have AA, KK, AK. If villain has AK or JJ you get all the money no matter what, so how you play against those is irrelevant.

How many flush draws can he even have? The Ad is out there. So he should only really have KQd. If he's bad, he can have KJd, QJd, QTd, JTs. But all on those are combo draws and probably never folding to any amount. That's only 5 draws. All of which have less equity than normal since you have a set.

So what you want to do is figure out how to get money from the under pairs. And the only way you do that is by checking or betting tiny, like 15-20%. You only have like 1.5 spr (stack to pot ratio). So you only need 2 streets to get the money in. But if you can stretch it to 3 by going tiny, tiny, tiny, and get paid by QA, that would be great.

A good exercise is to figure out what % of the pot to bet such that if they call every street, we can get that same amount on all 3 streets. This is geometric sizing. And in this case it's somewhere around 27%. That's so small that even pocket pairs are going to have a hard time folding to one bet on the flop.
 
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The main takeaway from your post is how easy it is to focus too much on the board instead of thinking through your opponent’s range. This hand is a great example. Seeing two diamonds on the flop, you immediately thought, “What if my opponent has a flush draw?” That concern drove your decision to shove, but it’s worth asking: What hands do I expect to call here? KK? QQ? AK?

When you analyze your opponent’s range and how it interacts with the flop, bet sizing becomes more natural. You start to ask: What hands are folding, what hands are calling, and what hands are raising? On a board like AJ5 with two diamonds, holding AA, a better play might often be a check or a smaller bet, like 1/3 pot, and then reassess on the turn.

It’s also important to accept that holding AA doesn’t guarantee you’ll win. Yes, you won this time, but your post raises some good questions: Did I leave money on the table? Could I have gotten more value? Probably. By playing slower and letting the turn card play out, you could’ve set up a better spot to extract value. For example, if your opponent has KJ of diamonds, and the turn gives them a flush while you hit a full house, they’re likely getting stacked.

Your shove seems to have been driven by fear—fear of losing to a hand that improves on the turn or river. Letting fear guide your decisions will hurt your game long-term. Your goal isn’t just to protect your stack but to tell a story that convinces your opponent. Focus on deception and composure rather than letting fear dictate your play, as it seems to have done here.
 
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Hero is in an ideal situation. Top set in a 4-bet pot. The stack to pot ratio is less than two. I think Hero's objective should be 100% extraction.

Villain's range "should" be sharply limited. The stacks are shallow - 80bb effective. AK plus QQ+. Should not don't mean much vs some villains though.

Let's flip the point of view. What does Hero's range look like to villain? Hero 4-bets with a shallow stack. AK, AQs, TT+ would seem to be on the loose side. AK plus JJ+ or even tighter on the tight side.

If Hero jams, villain is going to fold many holdings including most hands Hero crushes. Villain plays all his sets and two pair hands. I expect villain to call with AK and might even call with AQ.

If villain has a diamond draw, KQs is most likely. KTs QTs seem like a stretch, but could be in play. Note that all three of these hands are combo draws - nut flush plus a gut-shot Broadway draw. I think villain will call hero - the combo draw is good enough to be profitable as anything but sets.

What if hero checks? That bet invites villain to bluff and try to steal the pot. Or suggests to villain his Ax is good. Villain could be expected to jam with all draws. If villain bets, I suggest flatting. I want all the chips.

If villain check back on the flop, I think a small turn bet is in order.

I don't think Hero is going to avoid the risk of a combo flush / straight draw. If he jams, villain calls. If hero checks, villain bets and become pot committed. Hero doesn't even get to "protect" his top set with a jam. All hero does is allow villain to accurately fold most of his losing range.
 
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Small stakes online the villain is more likely to call and all in shove more frequently but normally I like a check raise here or about 25% pot raise.
 
The SPR in a 4-bet pot is generally small, in this case about 1.5 to 1. So it should be pretty easy to get the money in over the remaining streets, which obviously you want to do with top set. The flop also came out as AJ5 which is an incredible flop for your range as the 4 bettor, as all of your value combos such as AKs, AKo, AA and even bluffs pre-flop such as AJo and A5s are all incredibly strong hands that are comfortable getting the money in.

Definitely bet in this spot since you're in an extremely favorable world, something like 25% or 10% would be a great sizing. Keep his range as wide as possible and allow him to potentially spew off on later streets.

Your opponent also has only a couple combos of flush draws, such as suited broadway, most of which would be a questionable call preflop anyway. You're also never in any world getting him to fold that on the flop since most of them have a gutshot as well.

I think the main issue with this play is that your opponents decision is far too easy. I imagine he'd fold everything that's not flush draw or top pair.
 
A check here on the flop also let's your opponent have room to bluff if they think you have KK or QQ and are scared of the Ace.
 

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