A fish in an underground game. (1 Viewer)

Coyote

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It's been some time, but I 'll try to recreate it.
Underground game. Villains may have not necessarily done their math homework, but have spent a good deal of their lives playing poker, either in jail or outside.:D
Lots of limping, there is a clear desire by the crowd to see a cheap flop, if allowed.
Hero hasn't been dealt any premium cards and is down to 40BB (having started at 100BB) and hasn't had any difficulty establishing a tight and fishy image:LOL: :laugh:. Most stacks cover hero. Game is 9-handed.
Villain (with a stack around 100BB) raises from UTG+1 to 6BB. Folds to hero (in CO) who calls, looking at 33. Button and blinds fold.
Flop comes AA3, giving hero the underfull.
Villain bets the pot.
Hero gambles all in, despite fearing villain's holding AA (or, less probably, A3).
Villain holds Ax.
Turn and river change nothing and hero takes down the pot.
Hero did what he did being short-stacked.
What should have hero done with more than 100BBs in front of him? Fold pre-?
 
I wouldn't call that with 40bb. You don't have a deep enough stack to set mine, and by the sounds of that game, a 6bb raise from utg+1 should in theory be a very narrow range.

Even with 100bb I'd probably just fold and wait for a better spot. If one or two more had called, then I'm coming along for sure, but heads up, you kind hate any flop except for one that contains a 3.

Post flop though once you have the boat, you have to go with it, you may as well raise the pot on the flop and get the money in early.
 
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Yeah, the call pre is close. Hero is still set up to with 37BB when improving, so maybe the call is okay, but all the money has to get in about half the time when improving for this to be right.

Reraising pre merits some consideration. Tight image opens some opportunity to win unimproved. Either by winning pre or setting up to lead on boards that don't improve villian. If hero reraises to about 12bb, then set up for a pot sized shove. Bad news is an aggro villian could 4-bet shove and blow hero off the hand.

Other than the pf discussion, nothing wrong with the rest of the hand. Villian will have Ax here way more frequently than AA (or A3 for that matter) that's just monsters under the bed. Always get the money in on this flop if villian will oblige.
 
Maybe more valuable than the pot is the information that villain will raise to 6BB in UTG+1 with Ax.

Whoa I missed that, I read it as a 3x open, my bad. What happens when I PCF first think in the morning.

Then yes, the call is far more questionable pre. Hero has to play very well postflop to justify it. Can't make money on set mining alone, must know that villian is wide enough where hero can take it away in some spots unimproved.

But the rest of the hand is still solid.
 
I think it is a pre-flop fold. You have to assume you are behind most hands here. Your stack isn’t large enough to represent a stronger hand by raising pre and then continuing if you miss the flop.
 
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Knowing the results contaminates the discussion. . . .

In a game where pre-flop raises mean business, an early position raise tends to be pretty balanced. JJ+ is 24 hands, Aqo+ is 32 hands so Hero's pocket threes unimproved is not so easy to play post flop. If villain could be opening wider, then the pair of threes unimproved has an easier chance to realize its value - but only with position.

In this case Hero was making a marginal call preflop. His short stack offers limited upside when hero flops a set. It can't be a huge mistake, but I imagine it is a couple of BB negative expected value.

I didn't see where Hero discussed the rake, but that is absolutely critical to short stack play. Some underground games have obscene rake structures that cripple the odds.

I think this was a preflop fold. Post flop, I think Hero might have been better off flatting the flop, letting villain have a chance to hang himself with a pocket pair. Seeing two aces on the flop makes a pocket pair in villain's hand a lot bigger percentage of his range.

If hero is deeper stacked then the flop should be a raise, targeting big ace hands and hoping for a huge score. Under-full is fragile enough anyway, free cards are not advisable when Hero has much more than 40bb to start the hand.

And finally, Hero should be topping off in a heavily raked game. Or better, finding a game without a rake. But even there, topping off unless the stakes are a bit too much or the players too good.

That rake will kill you -=- DrStrange
 
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Maybe more valuable than the pot is the information that villain will raise to 6BB in UTG+1 with Ax.

I hope you raked that pot with an 'Aww shucks' speech, or maybe, 'I knew you had Ax...'

Villains UTG+1 open range should have a lot of Aces. Feels standard
 
It would be interesting if the story were more specific about Villian's holding. Definite insight to his range.

As in defending with 33 is much better if villian can have A5 here instead of only AK and AQ.
 
Is this a tourney or a cash game? My rule of thumb for set-mining is at least 10x effective stacks, although I might go a little less for a multiway pot. So if you are calling 6BB you should at least expect to win 60BB if you flop a set. Following that rule I would not call with your current stack, but if we had 100BB in front of us (and we always should have at least 100BB in front of us at a cash game, IMO).
 
What should have hero done with more than 100BBs in front of him? Fold pre-?

Preflop you're fine flat calling although I'd prefer to have more than one opponent when set-mining. Folding is OK too. When you've flopped the full house the goal is to get your stack in ASAP. This is difficult in most circumstances and a lot of things need to line up for that to happen.

As to the best way to accomplish this, much depends on the opponent. Given the way you described the players' tendencies, an EP open from a loose-passive player surely narrows their range to something like 10-10 or better. The big Ax hands are obviously part of this range.

The problem with flopping the under-full on a paired board is that your opponent's holdings that they will pay you off with narrow quite a bit, especially when the open pair is aces. If the flop were say 3-6-6 for example, you can usually extract at least one bet from all the overpairs your opponent may hold. In this particular hand though, you're only getting significant action from Ax unless your opponent is too stubborn to fold JJ//QQ/KK here.

If your opponents are prone to barreling multiple streets, then smooth calling the flop isn't a bad play. Any face card that hits the turn is uncomfortable, but the only card that makes things really gross is another ace.

If you think they are the type to shut down to any sign of resistance, then you probably are better off raising the flop and just hoping they have an ace to pay you off with. No point in letting them draw cheaply if they'll only pay off with a hand that beats yours.
 
Thanks to all of you guys for all the input.

Episode B:
Hero is now up and running edit: (in the area of 140-150BB), having won two big pots from a specific villain (scariest face in the room), actually felted him the second time. Our bad villain topped up - and may be now on tilt.
Hero is dealt AA (at last), UTG though. Hero just min-raises to 2BB, 'cause he plays a game of "always-raise-the-same-amount-from-given-position". Anyway, a bigger raise from our fish hero in EP would result in everybody folding (or so hero thought).
He gets two calls, from our scarface villain in MP, and a harmless little criminal in LP.
Flop comes 589 rag (no suits).
Hero, first to act, overbets a little the (anyway tiny) pot. Bad villain in MP raises all-in with his fresh, massive stack. Villain in LP folds.
Hero???
 
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Hero is dealt AA (at last), UTG though. Hero just min-raises to 2BB, 'cause he plays a game of "always-raise-the-same-amount-from-given-position". Anyway, a bigger raise from our fish hero in EP would result in everybody folding (or so hero thought).

Not a huge fan of min-raise in general, but as long as hero promises it's consistent, at least it's not an obvious sizing tell.

So I am gong to fill in some amounts.

7.5 BB in pot after pre, hero bet at least 8BB into the pot.

Sounds like hero is the effective stack, but a specific amount would be helpful.

But unless the amount is outrageous, I am leaning toward a call. I don't see how hero can ever have a better hand in his range than AA on this board unless hero is min-raising down to 99 or 88 pre. Otherwise if hero folds to the all in, he is literally folding his entire range. As hero, we need proof we are at too much of a range disadvantage here to fold the (or almost the) best hand we can have. A reliable tell on villian we can exploit to know this bet is always 2-pair plus and never hands like TT, JJ, JT, or A9, would be helpful. Hero not in horrible shape against 98 either. (Knowing the effective stack would make a big difference in this calculation here.)

So it's a call to me unless
1) Hero is also opening 88 and 99 the same way UTG. Then at least you can make the case that you don't have to 100% defend AA from a GTO distribution standpoint.
2) Villian has to have two-pair plus to raise on the flop. Meaning hero is obviously at a range disadvantage from a GTO distribution standpoint.
 
Exact stack sizes?

I don't mind standardizing your bet sizes to avoid establishing a pattern, but you should make it larger than a min-raise... my general thought is that I usually raise according to however the game is being played. For example, I've been in NL games where the standard open is 10x the BB... and others where a more reasonable 4 or 5x the BB. I like to stay consistent with those patterns.

As to the hand itself, I'm never folding aces in that spot. Call and expect to be ahead the majority of the time.

I'd also try to negotiate running it 2 or 3 times if the table allows for it.
 
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How big is his jam relative to the pot - this lets us calculate the theoretical Minimum Defense Frequency we should be calling off with which is a good baseline to understand. We are OOP and multiway and the population in general underbluffs, so absent any reads on villain we can underdefend but I wouldn't stray too far from the MDF.

Without the actual #'s impossible to calculate, but in general based on how you've described it, if villain is capable of making this move with pair+straight draw type hands (78s) as well as open-enders with backdoors like JTs, this might be a call. Absent those reads, you can probably fold.
 
Hero around 140-150BB, villain fresh with 120BB

Sounds like the play in charity rooms around Michigan. Guys routinely shove all in pre and post flop as massive overbets with full starting stacks. No real discernable logic or strategy by way of maximizing value, other than the all-in move absolves them of any further thinking.

Given the way the action went and the way you describe the player in question, no way I'm folding AA here. Villian turns over a lot of :9x: hands, pair/gutshot combos/overpairs just as often as sets, straights and 2-pair type hands.
 
Villain bets 118bbs into a 16BB pot.

Thats a huge bet and MDF comes out to a palsy 14%. Goose that up to 20% because on this flop his bluffs have plenty of equity against your calling range, and then drop it back down to 12-15% because of the other factors above (OOP and people don't bluff enough). If your UTG range is close to mine, you had probably 180-200 combos, you c-bet on this board 100 of them, and AA would be #12-17 behind 88, 99, T9s, 78s (blockers!). So you can fold AA. If you want to mix it up you want to call with your three combos that have the Ace of the missing flop suit, so you block less backdoor bluffs.

Now, want to confirm your pot math was correct -the call of your flop lead is counted in the pot and not as part of his bet, for the purposes of this exercise.
 
OK, you 're right:) Villain raises 110BBs into a 24BB pot (which includes his call)
 
It's been some time, but I 'll try to recreate it.
Underground game. Villains may have not necessarily done their math homework, but have spent a good deal of their lives playing poker, either in jail or outside.:D
Lots of limping, there is a clear desire by the crowd to see a cheap flop, if allowed.
Hero hasn't been dealt any premium cards and is down to 40BB (having started at 100BB) and hasn't had any difficulty establishing a tight and fishy image:LOL: :laugh:. Most stacks cover hero. Game is 9-handed.
Villain (with a stack around 100BB) raises from UTG+1 to 6BB. Folds to hero (in CO) who calls, looking at 33. Button and blinds fold.
Flop comes AA3, giving hero the underfull.
Villain bets the pot.
Hero gambles all in, despite fearing villain's holding AA (or, less probably, A3).
Villain holds Ax.
Turn and river change nothing and hero takes down the pot.
Hero did what he did being short-stacked.
What should have hero done with more than 100BBs in front of him? Fold pre-?
Check
 
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If I've got 40BB, I'm folding there a lot. But sometimes I shove. :sneaky:
Depends on my read...and the stakes.
Push and pray, baby!
 
bably 180-200 combos, you c-bet on this board 100 of them, and AA would be #12-17 behind 88, 99, T9s, 78s (blockers!). So you can fold AA.

I like that you have done the math here. Now I am making the argument from a far tighter utg range standpoint. Usually, I am only this loose if my game is a nit fest, but my "default" utg open range is more like 99-AA, AJ+, KQ, maybe ATs.

From this standpoint AA is probably the second best hand I could have with hero's line.
 
On episode B:
Hero folds his Aces, calls it a night and cashes out for a 30smth BB profit, proud to have survived (including literally:D ) for more than 5 hours there.

Interestingly, hero would have called against a normal and obviously tilted person in a home game.
But this was a bad game anyway. Not even the rule of "either in Greek or in English" was always enforced by the house, allowing foreign criminals to talk among them in their mother tongue.
 
@Coyote


Hand one

Hero down to 40BB tight and fishy image
Villain (with a stack around 100BB) raises from UTG+1 to 6BB.
Flop comes AA3, Villain bets the pot.


So it's 12BB, therefore Half stack of Hero, it's a fold or all in situation and a legit all in with a flopped full house. I do not consider it "To gamble"
Lesson: if Vilan raises 6BB with Ax it's a nice tell.
Lesson 2: Stop negative thinking after the flop. What he got? aull on the flop ? why he do not check the winning hand? A3? improbable because card removal, could the Vilan open 6BB with KK? or QQ? So why do you think those are aces in his hand?


Hero did what he did being short-stacked. What should have hero done with more than 100BBs in front of him? Fold pre-?
With 200BB i would just call the flop, do not tap on the tank to do not scare the fish and bring Villain to call with appropriate value bets.
Eventually check the turn and value bet the river.



Episode B:
Hero is now up and running in the area of 140-150BB, having won two big pots from a specific villain (scariest face in the room), actually felted him the second time. Our bad villain topped up - and may be now on tilt.
Hero is dealt AA (at last), UTG though. Hero just min-raises to 2BB,


Whaaaaat?!?!?
That mini raise is not good my friend, is an open door to anything,
I will be gladly paid 2 BB with my 89 rag and hit 2 pair on the flop or call with 67 to hit a straight and max profit.
Those are the kind of hands that you do not want to see with AA in your hand and such board.. Those 2 hands are very probable, and now invisible. If it's the case, as they have position on you, every bet you do, you give the cord to hang yourself.

Lesson
"always-raise-the-same-amount-from-given-position"
in this case is counterproductive.. vary your bets from hand and position is more effective.
I could consider an underplay by just calling the blind, if i know that after me there is a chance (at 99%) that one player raises me because he plays "raise-the-same-amount-from-given-position" taking this opportunity to re-raise him... but it's a 3rd degree meta game.
 

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