A .10/1/10/100 set. Yay or nay?

TwoHomie

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Thinking about building a fun micro stakes custom set, and am really drawn to the Bellagio 5/10 or the Parx 10/10 games that use 10x denominational jumps: 10s, 100s, and 1000s (with a handful of 5s in the bellagio game for the SB)

Which has got me thinking.....

Would a $.10/1/10/100 set work? The way I see it, compared to a typical .05/.25/1/5/25...etc breakdown, you get:

Benefits
  • Allows you to play .10/.20 or .10/.30 with way less chips than a .05/.25/x set would, which is nice when you want a $20 bill to get you 100 BBs
  • Makes the lowest denom useful for more than just the blinds. Opening raises use them, and probably flop betting as well(?)
  • In theory, allows a bit more granular bet sizing modulation. Pretend like you’re playing 1/3. After the flip, bets tend to be in $5 increments. A game with $1 and $10s would allow you to get a bit more specific (maybe this is a bad thing?)
  • Gets the 10s in play slightly more than the 25s would
  • There’s something cool about a non-traditional breakdown
Drawbacks:
  • It’s absolutely less efficient than a typical .05/25/1 set. .10/10 only requires 3 chips for a 3x opens, but .1/.2 requires 6? This is probably fine in limit, but feels like a not in NL
  • As a result, your overall bank is smaller, since you need more of the lower denoms.
  • Most people won’t be used to it
All that to say, what do y’all think? Did I miss anything? Would this even work?
 

TwoHomie

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I bet 99.

Seriously though, it's going to be really tough to play with a set where each chip is 10x the next smaller denom.

Conventional wisdom around here is that each chip should be 4x or 5x the next smaller. In practice this has always worked for me.
9 is where you run into problems. .10/10 clearly works the best, and .10/.20 kinda works, but .10/.20 should probably just use a .50 chip to make things easier.
 

TwoHomie

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Think at most I’d have a single barrel of 100s just for shits and gigs.

Hadn’t even thought that far about breakdown.

600 chips is probably either 300/200/80/20 or 200/300/80/20? Gets you $3,030 or $3,120.

1000 chips is maybe 400/400/180/20?
 

SeanGecko

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Thinking about building a fun micro stakes custom set, and am really drawn to the Bellagio 5/10 or the Parx 10/10 games that use 10x denominational jumps: 10s, 100s, and 1000s (with a handful of 5s in the bellagio game for the SB)

Which has got me thinking.....

Would a $.10/1/10/100 set work? The way I see it, compared to a typical .05/.25/1/5/25...etc breakdown, you get:

Benefits
  • Allows you to play .10/.20 or .10/.30 with way less chips than a .05/.25/x set would, which is nice when you want a $20 bill to get you 100 BBs
  • Makes the lowest denom useful for more than just the blinds. Opening raises use them, and probably flop betting as well(?)
  • In theory, allows a bit more granular bet sizing modulation. Pretend like you’re playing 1/3. After the flip, bets tend to be in $5 increments. A game with $1 and $10s would allow you to get a bit more specific (maybe this is a bad thing?)
  • Gets the 10s in play slightly more than the 25s would
  • There’s something cool about a non-traditional breakdown
Drawbacks:
  • It’s absolutely less efficient than a typical .05/25/1 set. .10/10 only requires 3 chips for a 3x opens, but .1/.2 requires 6? This is probably fine in limit, but feels like a not in NL
  • As a result, your overall bank is smaller, since you need more of the lower denoms.
  • Most people won’t be used to it
All that to say, what do y’all think? Did I miss anything? Would this even work?
Triton games were using something like that too right?
 

TwoHomie

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Ideally it’d be fun to make this set unnecessarily massive and do a 1/10th version of what they do at bellagio’s 5/10, which is a rack of 10s and then a few 100s as needed.

So maybe a $20 buy-in is 60 dimes, 4 1s, and a single 10? Or 60/14. Lots of chips for everyone!
 

TwoHomie

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I bet 99.

Seriously though, it's going to be really tough to play with a set where each chip is 10x the next smaller denom.

Conventional wisdom around here is that each chip should be 4x or 5x the next smaller. In practice this has always worked for me.
Ah didn’t see this said 99.

I guess my response is just: “well, don’t bet 99.”

Which admittedly is a pretty lame response, but the counter-argument is: “would someone otherwise bet $99 with a standard incremented set?” Sure, they could, but practically, would they?”
 

allforcharity

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Stack management may be difficult. There will always be 10 times as many 0.10 chips as $1 chips, and 10 times as many $1 as $10 chips. If you're using it as dedicated for microstakes with 0.10/0.20 blinds, then $100 would never see play, and even the $10 would be rare, unless you have the type of game where players rebuy multiple times.

Hypothetically, let's say you run 0.10/0.20 blinds with 10 players, initial buy-in is $20, but you need $600 bank in case the average player rebuys often enough for $60 a seat at the end of the night. With a 800 chip set, I could easily see a breakdown of:

400x 0.10
300x $1
100x $10
Bank $1340 (switching out 1 barrel for $100 will crank it up to $3140)

Everybody gets 2 barrels of 0.10 to start, with the rest in $1s, rebuys with $1s until they run out or combo of $1s and $10s. Tons of chips on the table early may promote more action. Pots will be voluminous. Hard on the all-ins and side bets. I can predict lots of change making.

But really, are there many who would be betting 0.90 or 9.90 in these scenarios?
 

TwoHomie

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DO IT! If this is an additional set.
Yep, already have a good “normal” micro stakes and an HSI set that could probably play up to a light 2/5 game, so this set is mostly just for funsies, but also to solve the annoyance of needing 2-chip/4-chip for .10/.20 with a nickel.
 

TwoHomie

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Stack management may be difficult. There will always be 10 times as many 0.10 chips as $1 chips, and 10 times as many $1 as $10 chips. If you're using it as dedicated for microstakes with 0.10/0.20 blinds, then $100 would never see play, and even the $10 would be rare, unless you have the type of game where players rebuy multiple times.

Hypothetically, let's say you run 0.10/0.20 blinds with 10 players, initial buy-in is $20, but you need $600 bank in case the average player rebuys often enough for $60 a seat at the end of the night. With a 800 chip set, I could easily see a breakdown of:

400x 0.10
300x $1
100x $10
Bank $1340 (switching out 1 barrel for $100 will crank it up to $3140)

Everybody gets 2 barrels of 0.10 to start, with the rest in $1s, rebuys with $1s until they run out or combo of $1s and $10s. Tons of chips on the table early may promote more action. Pots will be voluminous. Hard on the all-ins and side bets. I can predict lots of change making.

But really, are there many who would be betting 0.90 or 9.90 in these scenarios?
So an 8-handed game of $20 buy-ins gets 448 chips in play from the start? That’s amazing. Pots would be yuuuuuge.

As the dedicated all-time dealer I can see why this would be a pain, though.
 

TwoHomie

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We are going to need some custom designs now.
May pull the trigger on some of the Chip Room roulettes to make this happen.

Quick! Which colors for each denom???
Photo from The Chip Room Sale
BEB80928-B563-4DF6-A11F-B838A0653551.jpeg
 

Marius L

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The standard here in Norway is 10/20 with 10s, 100s, (500s), and 100s, which is similar at least.

Regular 2k buyin is:
18x 100
20x 10

I've played with 100x 10s total for a 9 man table, but it's too little imo. 200 works well, but if I were to make a set myself I would probably go with 300. This is PCF right. Enjoy some big stacks.

Keep in mind my experience is from a game with dedicated dealers, as there is a good amount of change making. Having 300 rather than 100-200 would make change making less of a problem. Also the standard open usually is 110, 120 (5-6bb) rather than 60 (3bb) somehow. I believe the denoms has something to do with this. Bets that would naturally be in the 70-80-90 range are often just rounded up by the bidder to avoid confusion, or spoken out while placing a 100, and expecting change from the dealer. I'm used to it, and it works well with a dealer, but could be less than ideal with an inexperienced home game crowd and no dealer.
 

Santa123

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I have added an other 500 chips to my microstakes cash game set with 5/10/25/1 denoms exactly for that reason. Unfortunately Corona didnt let my try the 10x breakdown yet.

Triton inspired me too.

For a 5c/10c game I would only use 5/10/1
giving each player ~30x 10c chips.

I think it will work as players in my game tend to stack chips 10x high. Combining 10x jumps with decimal denoms will be perfect.
 

moose

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The best breakdowns rarely need to make change from the pot. With this setup, as soon as someone bets 5-9 units, someone will call with the next largest denom and want change from the pot. It will slow down the game a lot and also you had better be pretty hard and fast on the one chip call rule. 4-5 units to the next denom is best. Less change is needed and more players will have the exact chips for a call or the pot will contain enough chips to make change.

Action:
Player bets $5, counting them out one at a time.
Next player throws $10 chip.
Was that a call or raise?
OK so you are hard and fast on the one chip call rule, so everyone knows it is a call, maybe you are not and an argument ensues over whether it was a call or raise.
Next player throws $10 chip and calls.
Everyone folds.
Two players need change.
Now the pot doesn't have enough change.
Can someone breakdown this $10 please?
More time is wasted.

Action
Player bets $1
Next player throws $10 chip and announces raise to $7.
Two callers. But it is confusing because the initial raiser threw out a $10, so each throws out a $10 chip, thinking that was the bet.
Everyone folds to first player.
More time wasted as the player asks if the bet is $10 or $7.
Now we watch as he laboriously counts out 6 more chips, one at a time.
Three players need change. Once again, the pot does not have enough for change.
Can someone breakdown this $10 please?
More time wasted.

Nightmare.
 
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Marius L

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The best breakdowns rarely need to make change from the pot. With this setup, as soon as someone bets 5-9 units, someone will call with the next largest denom and want change from the pot. It will slow down the game a lot and also you had better be pretty hard and fast on the one chip call rule. 4-5 units to the next denom is best. Less change is needed and more players will have the exact chips for a call or the pot will contain enough chips to make change.

Action:
Player bets $5, counting them out one at a time.
Next player throws $10 chip.
Was that a call or raise?
OK so you are hard and fast on the one chip call rule, so everyone knows it is a call, maybe you are not and an argument ensues over whether it was a call or raise.
Next player throws $10 chip and calls.
Everyone folds.
Two players need change.
Now the pot doesn't have enough change.
Can someone breakdown this $10 please?
More time is wasted.

Action
Player bets $1
Next player throws $10 chip and announces raise to $7.
Two callers. But it is confusing because the initial raiser threw out a $10, so each throws out a $10 chip, thinking that was the bet.
Everyone folds to first player.
More time wasted as the player asks if the bet is $10 or $7.
Now we watch as he laboriously counts out 6 more chips, one at a time.
Three players need change. Once again, the pot does not have enough for change.
Can someone breakdown this $10 please?
More time wasted.

Nightmare.

Definitely works much better with a dedicated dealer for sure.

Or with players that are used to making change between themselves.

For new players, or super casual (or drunk) players, I guess this could turn into a less than ideal scenario.
 
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Mr Winberg

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This:
Yep, already have a good “normal” micro stakes and an HSI set
makes me say go for it!

If you don't like how it works out you can buy a small number of .50 and 5 (not many are needed, they're just there as backup), that way the set will still in esscence be .1/1/10 but the change making will be reduced.
 

power13

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In terms of Vegas using the $10/$100/$1000 progression in $10/$20, I feel like I remember Matt Berkey on a podcast talking about why this is. Pros want to play $10/$20 instead of $10/$25 so they can use all their same solver work as from $5/$10 (same relative difference SB to BB) and so $10s are required and using bigger denominations available from the casino leads to $10/$100/$1000. You notice on the new High Stakes Poker they are playing $200/$400 with the traditional 100/500/1000/5000 progression, though worth noting almost nobody bets using $500s.

So I feel like there is no problem with the non traditional progression. High stakes pros use it without a problem and maybe prefer it. There’s something cool about playing the same way pros do IMO.

The only issue I think is you will need many more of the lowest denomination chip that you would in a standard breakdown. There tend to be a lot of $10s on the table in $10/$20 - bordering on limit game levels. For many on this forum that will be an advantage! But to build a playable set it feels like you will need a lot more chips than in a traditional progression.

This got me thinking that with the addition of a $10 I should be able to spread $1/$2 with my crew using this structure. I have a crap load of $1s from my limit set...
 
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pltrgyst

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Anything new can be difficult.

I have a .25/1/10/100 Riverboat set that I used once for a .25/.25 game, and it went smoothly...
 
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