89cc on the Button (1 Viewer)

[swemon]

This is a hand I recently played in the Casino Cosmopol in Sweden, and it's been wracking my brain ever since. At this stage of the tournament there were 11 players left (of 50), and I'm chip leader with 300k (30%) of the chips. Unfortunately I cannot remember the exact blind levels, but there is plenty of play left.

UTG+1 raises 3xBB, UTG+2 flat calls, and it's folded to me on the button with . I raise by tripling the initial raise to a) try and win the pot there, or b) isolate one of the callers with a spectulative hand in position. Everyone else folds with the exception of UTG+1. He's a solid player, only ever showdown huge hands, and I put him on a high pair, but not KK or AA - he was often protecting those pre-flop and usually would have 4-bet all-in.

Flop:

Villain check-raises my continuation bet.

At this stage the only hand I'm worried about is 77, but considering his tight image I dismiss that option immediately. I also dismiss 88 and 99 since I have one of each. I'm convinced he is a) trying to protect his high pair, or b) semi-bluffing with two high spades (flush draw and over cards).

I go all-in.

He calls and tables - a flopped straight. A complete surprise, and doubles up through me. I would never imagined he would play those cards (or even JT) out of position.

What would you have done, is there anyway I can find a fold in this situation?

 

[ilovegravy]

I think a shove is over-repping our hand here when we get check raised by a solid player in early position. Yes, we are ahead of a number of draws villain could hold on this super wet and connected board, and we are ahead of overpairs, but we only have 4 outs to improve our hand if we are a) behind to a set of 7s or b) fall behind if villain hits one of his draws.

I'm not advocating a fold. I probably just call here and see what the turn brings. Like I said, there aren't many cards that improve our hand, but there should be a lot of scare cards that would get villain off an overpair, if that is what you expect. Given you've already included the conclusion of the hand in your post, it's hard to remain objective about the results.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

Gross. He got lucky, what can you do.

 

[BGinGA]

Fold pre.

 

[ilovegravy]

Fold pre.

I don't mind putting this hand in my 3bet range in late position. An UTG raise from someone perceived as TAG is usually easy to range and we can use a hand like this to suck a lot of value out of villain's holdings when we hit a flop like the one above.

 

[swemon]

I don't mind putting this hand in my 3bet range in late position.

Exactly - coupled with the fact I had loads of chips to speculate with and keep putting the pressure on: folding or calling pre-flop never entered my mind. Sure, my post-flop play could've been more sensible, but I made a decision at the time and stuck with it. Unfortunately it was incorrect and it's lesson learned.

He did come over and apologise after the tournament (not sure why), but apparently he'd gotten bored of folding and wanted to either get knocked out or have a chance of winning.

 

[BukNaked36]

Just a cooler. 3 bet preflop, super wet board - could be overpair, flush draw, str8 draw - no getting away from this

 

[DoubleEagle]

You had two chances to get away from this hand.

 

[ChaosRock]

Without knowing how deep you guys were playing it's hard to gage the pre-flop action. Assuming you were deep enough, I favor a call with suited connectors hoping to bring the blinds along. Not too concerned about iso with that hand. Don't hate the 3-bet though. Size-wise, I like to size 3-bets a little larger, probably around 4x or more if there's callers.

Villain's 3-bet call is awful IMO, although you gave him a pretty good price for the call. So he opens UTG+1 (bad) and calls a 3-bet OOP (bad). Not sure if the read of him being a solid player is on point.

Once the flop comes, there's not much you could do honestly.

It wouldn't change the result but I like calling his raise better than shoving. You can at least keep some of his draws/bluffs in the hand. Granted, if your read is that Villain has an overpair (QQ, JJ and TT), there's quite a few player who would call the shove.

Again, it's hard to comment too much on the shove (or call) without knowing stack sizes. Did he have a stack who could fold a flush draw, idk...

Bottom line is that once you flopped 2P, it's hard to get away on that board vs an UTG+1 raiser who calls a 3-bet.

 

[v1pe]

Yeah, he is not solid. His pre-flop play is terrible lol.

Unfortunately he got lucky, I don't dislike the way you played the hand at all. It's a great 3bet bluffing hand pre, especially as the chip leader. His X/R screams 77, overpair, or some suited broadway AQss type hand as you said. I probably would have made it 4-5x pre given 3 players in the hand, but you are in position so we can size a little smaller if we want, knowing villain might call with a wider range (still would never expect T6dd though).

 

[upNdown]

Not sure if the read of him being a solid player is on point.

I'm guessing he didn't play those cards that way hoping to flop a straight (or a flush.) More likely, he just decided he was gonna steal a hand, and he ended up getting a lucky flop.

 

[BGinGA]

I still think it's a fold pre-flop given the OP circumstances (big stack, tournament, close to the final table). Too many ways to get into big trouble with 98s and dump off a lot of chips, button or not. And planning to try and isolate with a weak holding is a losing strategy, long term.

Cash game, different story. You can always reload, and chips-in-hand have less relative value.

But in a tournament setting, effective big stack play isn't about aggression -- it's about ~selective~ aggression and picking the right spots to apply pressure.

 

[AWenger]

the only hand I'm worried about is 77, but considering his tight image I dismiss that option immediately. I also dismiss 88 and 99 since I have one of each

With your card + the cards on the flop, there are 3 combinations of 77 remaining, 1 combo of 88, and 1 combo of 99 left. While still a very small probability, I wouldn't just dismiss them entirely. If he had flopped a set, (assuming he'd call preflop with 77, 88, or 99) there's a 40% chance it's 88 or 99, and 60% it's 77.

If an opponent raises or re-raises you, and they're just not afraid of anything (like raising into the tournament chip leader),... what hand are they putting you on....they know you have a strong hand, and are still raising... it often means they have the nuts or close to it. Although on that board, there are some draws that would probably never fold, like AsTs, 6s7s, etc.

Bottom line is that once you flopped 2P, it's hard to get away on that board vs an UTG+1 raiser who calls a 3-bet.

But I agree with this.

 

[v1pe]

If an opponent raises or re-raises you, and they're just not afraid of anything (like raising into the tournament chip leader),... what hand are they putting you on....they know you have a strong hand, and are still raising... it often means they have the nuts or close to it. Although on that board, there are some draws that would probably never fold, like AsTs, 6s7s, etc.

I disagree, as the pf agressor our cbet range can still be pretty wide. We have plenty of draws in our range that villain has fold equity against if he's x/r as a semi bluff.

 

[DrStrange]

There is little point to any detailed discussion, not knowing the size of the pot, the size of the blinds or bets, or the size of anyone's stack.

Three betting 98s preflop is a fancy play. Perhaps warranted, but the fact that Hero can not remember critical things about the table situation leads me to rate the play as a mistake. The effective stacks have to be deep, Hero needs to know he will have post flop fold equity. Hero also needs to have a significant degree of confidence that he can read the villain's range while keeping his range open.

Not knowing anything about the effective stacks vs the pot size, it is hard to comment on Hero's post flop play. The continuation bet is close to obligatory. After that it gets hard to evaluate, though my bias is to depend on Hero's villain reads and stack off.

In hindsight we can see serious reasons to question hero's villain read. Raise/flatT6s from early position polarizes villain as either donkey or capable of sophisticated plays but definitely not an ABC TAG type player. Bias towards donkey until proven otherwise - meaning stacking off was still the right play.

Please don't take these next comments as criticism, take them as an observation plus suggestion. Based on this single hand, Hero appears to be particularly unaware of critical factors that allow departure from ABC poker strategy. This is a major leak in Hero's game. Three betting speculative hands insures Hero is going to face tricky situations where experience, "table feel" and judgement are going to prove critical. Hero appears unprepared to face such situations profitably

My suggestion to Hero is two fold. First, practice being aware of things like stack sizes, blinds and villain behavior. Make reads on hands when you are not involved with a hand and compare them to actual hands when possible. Posting hands is a good idea. If that requires taking a few notes to keep the facts straight, do so.

Second, I encourage Hero to stick with ABC poker and avoid fancy plays. That means observant villains with extensive table history with hero gain a significant edge. But in casino tournament play, that really isn't a problem.

TLDR:

The hand was a cooler. Hero shouldn't put himself in these situations in the future -=- DrStrange

PS It would be really interesting to have seen Hero's play on a more difficult flop - say . Middle pair, backdoor draws but likely behind villain's range. A better test for Hero's skills in such situations.

 

[AWenger]

I disagree, as the pf agressor our cbet range can still be pretty wide. We have plenty of draws in our range that villain has fold equity against if he's x/r as a semi bluff.

I see your point. The statement I made that "they know you have a strong hand, and are still raising" is more of a question of: does your opponent hope you have a strong hand, and are raising to try to win more chips, or are they raising and hoping to get you to fold some of your weaker holdings. If you think they're strong, and hoping you have a strong hand, it's in these spots where lack of fear of raising can mean the nuts or close to it.

 

[Steve Birrer]

I see zero reason to play this hand pre flop at all. Better places and hands. But if I felt I wanted to play this hand and I have position I might just call. But raise? Not with out a lot of intel on teh players. A 3X raise and call. Could well be behind both hands. Raise and you might just get shoved over the top then what? Don't want to be in that position so I am folding preflop.

 

[Gobbs]

Pre-flop fold. Way behind far too many hands that raised ahead of it and hands that called a raise.

I would agree to a call, but not a raise. I don't mind playing this hand multi-handed and can get away from it if I don't hit the flop big. A raise to isolate doesn't seem to work well, though.

 

[swemon]

As a guess, I would imagine the blinds were around 2000/4000 with no ante: giving me ~75bb at the time. Working backwards, the villain would've had around 150k in chips, ~40bb. We were the two biggest stacks at the table and most likely the two biggest stacks left in the tournament.

Really appreciate all the discussion, it's interesting to see other's opinions.

Please don't take these next comments as criticism, take them as an observation plus suggestion.

On the contrary, a little criticism is fine with me. How else am I going to learn from situations like this? Thanks for all the feedback!

 

[Gobbs]

I forgot you were going up against the one person who could really hurt you. That's another reason to fold.

 

[UKS]

J10 is always going to be a possibility. I wouldn't have put 106 at all. But J10s no spades? Definitely.

I think 89 here I am trying to get to river fairly cheaply. I would think I am good all the way, but I wouldn't be pushing hard.

 

[upNdown]

J10 is always going to be a possibility. I wouldn't have put 106 at all. But J10s no spades? Definitely.

I think 89 here I am trying to get to river fairly cheaply. I would think I am good all the way, but I wouldn't be pushing hard.

I recently realized that I’ve been overvaluing J10 and playing it wrong. It seems like most of the times I’ve had a bunch of chips in the middle and asked myself how did I get myself in this position, it was with J10.

 

[longflop]

Keep in mind I am a social, bad player, but if I read a guy as TAG, and he 3 bets it, UTG +1, I'm not raising with 89cc even on the button, and I'm only calling if there are two other callers. Try to make my money after the flop.