78s in the cut off

DrStrange

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Playing $0.25/$0.50 live, nine handed. ($20 max buy-in) Relatively early in the night. This is a highly social game, made even more so by a {meaningless} basketball game on TV. Hyper loose, relatively passive.

Cast of characters:

Hero is CO with $45. People generally expect Hero to fold a lot but play hard when he has a hand. Not that they fold easily, but no one is shocked when their modest hands lose. This is especially true preflop - hero will get callers when he raises.

The rest of the table is all over the map. Stacks range from $10 to $100. Most of the players are loose/passive fit or fold {but with lower standards for what is a fit} There are a couple of tighter players and one LAGgy player. More details later.

The hand:

Four limps to Hero (including the LAG), hero has :7s: :8s: Call, fold or raise? If raising, how much?

What ever you are expecting to happen, you are likely wrong -=- DrStrange
 

MoscowRadio

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If you're not going to get folds, I would just limp here. I wouldn't want to bloat the pot with this hand; it'll just make it harder to play down the line. I like this hand, but not with this much action. If you make either pair you've got kicker problems. There's always the possibility of better flushes and if the board runs out 9Tx then you're probably trying to fade a lot of outs. My consensus is the call>fold>raise.
 

grandgnu

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NO LIMPING! Don't play poker like the schmoes, play it like the pros!

I like a raise to $3.50 (bout tree fiddy). Hero wants to take a positional post-flop advantage here. On top of that, there are a number of flops that Villians will assume we hit, when we actually whiff, giving us bluffing potential with our raise. And since it's unlikely Villians will put this hand in our raising range, it increases the likelihood we can get paid off when we do flop big.
 

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*** on to the flop ***

Hero limps. We end up with seven way action, $3.5 in the pot. Button folded, so Hero has the effective button.

Flop: :qs: :5s: :kc:

Everyone checks to Hero. Check or bet? If betting, how much? Any future thoughts?

DrStrange
 

grandgnu

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*** on to the flop ***

Hero limps. We end up with seven way action, $3.5 in the pot. Button folded, so Hero has the effective button.

Flop: :qs: :5s: :kc:

Everyone checks to Hero. Check or bet? If betting, how much?

DrStrange

Bet $2.75

Any future thoughts?

I'm of the school of thought that one should not waste their mental time preparing for multiple uncertainties, but rather focus their brainpower on the problem at hand as it occurs, so as to only expend energy on something that is happening rather than multiple things that may happen.
 

Ben

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I would raise pre, but that is more about long term image development and probably isn't the optimal play in the vacuum of this one hand. As played, with absolutely nothing on a 7-way flop? No decision, check.
 

Ben

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Sorry, could have sworn we had 7h 8h for some reason. Still a check-behind - these players are not going to fold K-rag or Q-rag here (especially the short stacks.)
 
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In a bigger game I'd keep my raise sizing consistent. In a game like the one described, I don't think we need to worry nearly as much about villains noticing bet sizing tells.
 
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Raise to $2.50ish. Building a pot for when we hit on the turn & buying control of the hand so we can usually choose whether to bluff to check behind when we miss. We have some fold equity and getting raised seems unlikely.
 

DrStrange

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The reason I ask about future thoughts is that Hero's decision on the flop is colored by how he plans to play the turn and river. I am not looking for a comprehensive plan, but Hero has to have some reasoning behind his action.

Perhaps I might word it differently - if we have hero bet the flop, why are we doing that? Hero could take a free card and draw for $0.00. Hero's eight high isn't the best hand at the table and the sticky nature of the cast of characters makes it unlikely that hero is going to win the pot with any normal sized bet.

DrStrange
 

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Bet whatever this loose passive table will call.

Hero has somewhere between 20% and 25% pot equity, but with six loose players, only puts in 14% of they money. Any fold increases the odds of winning.

Should hero hit on the turn or river, the bigger the pot is, the bigger a value bet they're liable to call. Let this pot get to the river with only $3.50 and you may not be able to get a call on a $3 river bet with a scare card - and it will be a scare card if you it.
 

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If we had ATss or even J9ss this would be a great spot to bet. In a 7-way limped pot where we can and will get called down (very) profitably by Q3o or J3ss, betting here would be very spewy IMO. If you want to fire here you better be prepared to barrel all three streets - and hope you don't get overflushed or called by one of the short stacks.
 

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In general, I think a flop bet chases away those with no hand now, but a chance of contributing to the pot when we hit, like 22 or 45hh. I check and hope that if 8-high flush is good, it gets paid off enough by second best to balance the flip side of the Joss out flushing our hand when we hit.
 

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*** on to the turn ***

Hero bets $2.75, expecting a significant number of callers {and planning on taking a free card if available}. Instead Hero gets one caller.

Villain details: This is our host. His normal style is loose, aggressive and playful. However he is recovering from surgery and on pain medication and watching the basketball game. He covers Hero. Hero's flop plan didn't work out as hoped, it is heads up with $9 in the pot. Effective stacks $42.

Turn: < :qs: :5s: :kc: > :4h: Villain checks.

Should Hero take the free card or bet? If betting how much?

DrStrange
 

grandgnu

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Hero should bet the turn, Villian could easily be drawing (to a flush or straight). We aren't going to win at showdown if we don't hit our hand and just go passive here. I'm putting in a bet of $6
 

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Betting $8. With sufficient stacks to do so I'm looking to move him off a better draw or weak king. Given the info above I think he practically never has a premium hand here - KJ would be about the top of his range. Probably betting big on river if called/checked to regardless (slightly larger if we miss.)
 

detroitdad

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Playing $0.25/$0.50 live, nine handed. ($20 max buy-in) Relatively early in the night. This is a highly social game, made even more so by a {meaningless} basketball game on TV. Hyper loose, relatively passive.

Cast of characters:

Hero is CO with $45. People generally expect Hero to fold a lot but play hard when he has a hand. Not that they fold easily, but no one is shocked when their modest hands lose. This is especially true preflop - hero will get callers when he raises.

The rest of the table is all over the map. Stacks range from $10 to $100. Most of the players are loose/passive fit or fold {but with lower standards for what is a fit} There are a couple of tighter players and one LAGgy player. More details later.

The hand:

Four limps to Hero (including the LAG), hero has :7s: :8s: Call, fold or raise? If raising, how much?

What ever you are expecting to happen, you are likely wrong -=- DrStrange

I'm late to the thread. I'll post my pre flop action before reading any further.

I would raise. Anywhere in the 3.5-4 range. Maybe clear out a couple of players. Maybe now. With only 45 behind me I don't mind building a pot.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

*** on to the flop ***

Hero limps. We end up with seven way action, $3.5 in the pot. Button folded, so Hero has the effective button.

Flop: :qs: :5s: :kc:

Everyone checks to Hero. Check or bet? If betting, how much? Any future thoughts?

DrStrange

I hate the pre flop limp. With 3.5 in the pot and seven way action I think I just check here.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

*** on to the turn ***

Hero bets $2.75, expecting a significant number of callers {and planning on taking a free card if available}. Instead Hero gets one caller.

Villain details: This is our host. His normal style is loose, aggressive and playful. However he is recovering from surgery and on pain medication and watching the basketball game. He covers Hero. Hero's flop plan didn't work out as hoped, it is heads up with $9 in the pot. Effective stacks $42.

Turn: < :qs: :5s: :kc: > :4h: Villain checks.

Should Hero take the free card or bet? If betting how much?

DrStrange

That is surprising. I'm not checking here. I bet about 75% of the pot.
 

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With this change in the field, I'm seriously concerned that my flush, if it hits, is not good - while if I don't hit, I'm likely losing to a high card, if not losing to a pair of kings or queens.

I bet between pot and half pot. My goal now is to take down the pot before villain improves, or to set myself up to make a continuation bet on the river to take it down in the event of us both having a busted flush draw. In the unlikely event that the straight comes in, the larger pot gives villain better calling odds, improving my currently implied odds.

Taking a free card is not an appealing strategy, here.
 

snooptodd

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The reason I ask about future thoughts is that Hero's decision on the flop is colored by how he plans to play the turn and river. I am not looking for a comprehensive plan, but Hero has to have some reasoning behind his action.

Perhaps I might word it differently - if we have hero bet the flop, why are we doing that? Hero could take a free card and draw for $0.00. Hero's eight high isn't the best hand at the table and the sticky nature of the cast of characters makes it unlikely that hero is going to win the pot with any normal sized bet.

DrStrange

I think a bet with position here buys you a free card on the river if you miss on the turn. If you check the flop, then miss on the turn and another player bets out, you're most likely not getting the right price to call. However, it seems unlikely with this cast of characters that anyone would bet the turn. If you hit, great, you can now make a larger bet both here and on the river. If you miss, you can check and try to catch on the river.
 
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I range villain mostly weak draws & small pairs. I don't think he folds enough on such a wet board to bet. I check behind.
If the river bricks and he checks, I give up and check behind. If he bets, I put a chunky raise in unless it's an A or 9.
 

DrStrange

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I'll on an unexpected run to the hospital to sit for a friend. . . . no telling when I'll get back to update. This thread has far longer to go than it appears right now.

DrStrange
 

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*** On to the river ***

Hero bets $7.50. Villain snap calls. Two players seeing the river, $24 in the pot.

River is < :qs: :5s: :kc: > :4h: :9c:

Villain checks. Does Hero bet or concede? If betting how much?

DrStrange

PS Friend is going in for hernia surgery mid morning. Looks routine - but I firmly believe no one should be left alone in a hospital when under the influence. Mistakes happen, an extra pair of eyes saves a world of potential trouble.
 

Mental Nomad

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For a player like that, the snap call on the turn could be a flush draw waiting on implied odds - especially if distracted and not noticing the small pot.

At this point, I would bet about $10 about half the time, to take this out from the busted draw sometimes - but not always, so he doesn't get to check - call all his weak kinds and Queens.
 
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