63s...Interesting spot, WWYD?

bergs

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Not interested in the slightest in discussion about the initial raise. Rest of this, fire away.

1/2 NL at Foxwoods on a sleepy Sunday AM. I'm at $450 on a $300 BI and I cover all villains. Table has been playing looser than when I first sat down but still tight. My image is completely aggro and running hot ($80 to $500 in previous hands). All players at table except UTG are tight passive players. UTG is crazy Asian kid, was table captain, but then I sat down. I have not limped once pre in 3 hours - raise or fold every time.

I'm OTB and look down at 63dd. Entire table limped around and I raise to $15 (standard as been $10-15). SB calls. UTG (Semi-crazy Asian kid) shoves for $100. UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls all in for $80. UTG+3 calls all in for $95. Folds to CO who jams for $130. SB has $50 behind and acts after me.

Pot is $340, but I'm 10000% positive SB is calling all day, so effectively $390. I have to call off $115 to make the pot $505ish and join the circus. If I call, there is no other action as the other 4 players are all in.

WWYD?
 

Ben

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You even have to ask? PLOSAY Grand Wizard status hereby revoked. Turn in your ring AND your tie tack.
 

bergs

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You even have to ask? PLOSAY Grand Wizard status hereby revoked. Turn in your ring AND your tie tack.

This is NLHE, not PLO. I only have Grand Wizard SAY status at PLO.
 

courage

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You must have raised with something.

vs 4 players with random hands you're 15.8% to win, they're 19.5%. Getting about 4:1. Fist pump shove.
 
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onerand

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This is a fun call to make. Implied tilt odds are huge, despite taking the worst of it, somewhat. You are only in very bad shape if up against an overpair and your suit is gone.
 

bergs

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This is a fun call to make. Implied tilt odds are huge, despite taking the worst of it, somewhat. You are only in very bad shape if up against an overpair and your suit is gone.

Doesn't seem like anyone is in the fold camp. The implied tilt odds is something I didn't take into effect.

I think I would've snap folded. if I has been at something like $220. I assume that's wrong based on odds and stack sizes other than covering villains is irrelevant, correct?

With my $450 stack, I tanked for about a minute (which seemed like a very long time in the moment).
 

Trihonda

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Fold my AA and call Trihonda.

LOL, I'm not good enough to fold aces preflop.

If the BR supports a little gambol (and Bergs, I think yours does), I'd make the call here. :) Worth the price of admission, if nothing else than for the great story it makes! :)
 

Ben

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The play here is simple:

1. Fist-pump call
2. Bink 245 flop.
3. Bust 5 players in one hand
4. Berate players for their poor play
5. Rack up and leave
6. Become Foxwoods legend. From now until the end of time, all players will be auto-tilted the moment you sit down. You can't put a price on that.
 

Leonard

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The play here is simple:

1. Fist-pump call
2. Bink 245 flop.
3. Bust 5 players in one hand
4. Berate players for their poor play
5. Rack up and leave
6. Become Foxwoods legend. From now until the end of time, all players will be auto-tilted the moment you sit down. You can't put a price on that.

I love this^^^ Especially 5.

L
 

DrStrange

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hero hand is not quite getting direct odds vs. the field. $115/$505 = 23% but Hero only has something like 16% equity. This is a $30 to $35 error on direct odds.

The issue is post flop play - implied odds and RIO. Sadly we don't know what the relevant stacks are. Hero is going to be greatly temped to call a post flop bet with bottom pair because of the pot odds. I think Hero gets the worst of it more often than he gets a lucky flop with good equity for the post flop bets. (meaning he calls another $150 with bottom pair and a runner runner straight draw lots more often than he hits trips / two pair / big draw.)

So in the muck it goes. Hero shouldn't be tempted to say its close so what the hell. A $30 error is a huge decline in win rate. hero can't do this very often if ever. LAGs have to be very aware of this risk because they expose themselves to it all the time. Hero is about to get into serious trouble here. Do not do it.

Curious how that worked out - hero makes a $15 raise with six high and almost gets pot committed.

DrStrange
 

Toby

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Rather than leave after racking up, I'd return to the rail and continue the critique of play. Order drinks on their tabs as payment.

Also, offer anyone felted a friendly pay day loan to tide them over.
 

moose

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hero hand is not quite getting direct odds vs. the field. $115/$505 = 23% but Hero only has something like 16% equity. This is a $30 to $35 error on direct odds.

The issue is post flop play - implied odds and RIO. Sadly we don't know what the relevant stacks are. Hero is going to be greatly temped to call a post flop bet with bottom pair because of the pot odds. I think Hero gets the worst of it more often than he gets a lucky flop with good equity for the post flop bets. (meaning he calls another $150 with bottom pair and a runner runner straight draw lots more often than he hits trips / two pair / big draw.)

So in the muck it goes. Hero shouldn't be tempted to say its close so what the hell. A $30 error is a huge decline in win rate. hero can't do this very often if ever. LAGs have to be very aware of this risk because they expose themselves to it all the time. Hero is about to get into serious trouble here. Do not do it.

Curious how that worked out - hero makes a $15 raise with six high and almost gets pot committed.

DrStrange

Ugh everyone is allin?
 

bergs

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Ugh everyone is allin?

Yup. Everyone except SB and he's giggling because he's absolutely getting it in.

Ben - that's funny you mentioned rack up because I announced the previous hand that I'm playing to the blinds and then leaving.
 

bergs

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Results:

The way everyone had been playing, I assumed that half the deck would help my hand and my cards were completely live, and the other players would largely have each other's outs. Nobody has a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 in their hand - all of which help my hand if they flop.

I end up calling. SB instacalls. Nobody tables their hand.

Flop Qc - Tc - 3s.
Turn 6c.
River Ax (UGH! Table erupts)

SB mucks
UTG has JJ
UTG+2 has A7hh (?!?)
UTG+3 has KQss
CO has AJo

Dealer looks at our hands for a full 30 seconds before laughing and pushing pot to me - which pisses off the guy with JJ and the CO to his right (I'm directly to dealer's left).

Bunch of guys berate me, guys not in the hand congratulate me, and I start getting action from everyone.

It's weird that some of the players picked this moment to spazz out. I assumed I was up against JJ, AK, AQ, and QQ or TT.

WHEEEEEEE!
 

bergs

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Doc is prolly right that the call is incorrect. Felt like a decent spot at the time with live cards and capping the action, and being up on the session even if I called.

Doc - would you actually do that math at the table, even approximating it? I'm curious what you would've done on the moment if you were me.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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In all honestly, as a stand alone hand I think it's a pretty easy fold. If even of of those jabronis has an over pair you're not getting the right odds to call. However, with the implied tilt odds, you can certainly make a case for calling. Also, I personally like to merge my bluff calling range, so there's that.
 

snooptodd

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Not interested in the slightest in discussion about the initial raise. Rest of this, fire away.

I know you said you're not interested in discussing the original raise, but the resulting all-in fest makes me think that it might not be worth raising a bunch of short stacks from the button with 6-3 suited. That said, the tilt equity/image that you project as a result of playing a hand like this is difficult to measure.
 

bergs

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I know you said you're not interested in discussing the original raise, but the resulting all-in fest makes me think that it might not be worth raising a bunch of short stacks from the button with 6-3 suited. That said, the tilt equity/image that you project as a result of playing a hand like this is difficult to measure.

When I raise like this on the button with gap connectors, I'm trying to get 1-2 tight players to call and flop something like a straight or 2 pair and win a healthy pot. Even though I play loose, a lot of 1/2 players can't put me on a hand like 87, 64, 63, etc. 2/5, sometimes. 5/10, I get murdered if I try this bullshit :)
 

detroitdad

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When I raise like this on the button with gap connectors, I'm trying to get 1-2 tight players to call and flop something like a straight or 2 pair and win a healthy pot. Even though I play loose, a lot of 1/2 players can't put me on a hand like 87, 64, 63, etc. 2/5, sometimes. 5/10, I get murdered if I try this bullshit :)

couple of years ago I was playing 1/2 at Greektown. In the BB with 3/5 suited. I think there was a $10 bet in the middle position. 4 callers. I had 150 left of my 200 buy in. I raised to 50 with the intentions of playing for all of it pre flop if needed, and it was. Everyone called. Flop was 1/2/4. I shoved my remaining 100 in. got three callers. There were two over pair to the board and and A/K (initial bettor). I'll never forget that hand.
 

snooptodd

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When I raise like this on the button with gap connectors, I'm trying to get 1-2 tight players to call and flop something like a straight or 2 pair and win a healthy pot. Even though I play loose, a lot of 1/2 players can't put me on a hand like 87, 64, 63, etc. 2/5, sometimes. 5/10, I get murdered if I try this bullshit :)

I don't think it's a bad strategy or that it can't work. You've put me in some pretty horrible situations before where I had no idea where I was. But against this table of villains, all of whom have stacks 1/3rd the size of yours, I'm not sure it makes sense. That being said, you have way more 1/2 NLH experience than I do, and way more experience playing a LAG style than my nit bones can muster.
 

DrStrange

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It looks like the starting stacks were roughly $100, $80, $95, $130 and $65. 63s needs high SPRs to profit. It could easily be the case that every villain is going to have an SPR < 1 and will be willing to risk their stacks with very little maybe only ace high or less.

I would have more enthusiasm for the raise if the stacks were 10x bigger and Hero's deception is more useful.

DrStrange
 
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