3 bet shove 25+ BB (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter UKS
- Start date
Chippy McChiperson
4 of a Kind
how early in the tourney, are rebuys involved, what is your stack size/average stack size, are you close to the bubble, and how loose/tight has this person been playing are all questions that would help me determine my answer.
As chippy said, we need a lot more information to have a useful discussion.
That said, my first thought is that this is a nonsense bet, made by an idiot. There’s no telling what the idiot holds, so I’m not calling with anything less than aces, unless I’m very short or VERY deep.
Seems like a waste of brainpower to try to range a maniac like this, but if I had to guess, I’d guess somet high-middle pair like jacks or tens.
That said, my first thought is that this is a nonsense bet, made by an idiot. There’s no telling what the idiot holds, so I’m not calling with anything less than aces, unless I’m very short or VERY deep.
Seems like a waste of brainpower to try to range a maniac like this, but if I had to guess, I’d guess somet high-middle pair like jacks or tens.
Generally-speaking, I'm calling with AA, KK, QQ, and AKs. But as chippy noted, there are a lot of variables that may loosen that range up quite a bit, or tighten it up to possibly only pocket Aces.
Pending the info Chippy asked for, I'd range Villain 66-JJ, AT-AQs, maybe KQs.
Disagree with U&D's opinion about the Villain. I see that play all the time by the best players in the world (granted, playing against other best players in the world). But yeah, usually Villain is the short stack or is shoving on shortest stack. So more info is needed.
Disagree with U&D's opinion about the Villain. I see that play all the time by the best players in the world (granted, playing against other best players in the world). But yeah, usually Villain is the short stack or is shoving on shortest stack. So more info is needed.
Last edited:
Mr Tree
Straight Flush
I have seen this play an enormous amount of time with JJ specifically, but also with other hands with value villain is afraid of playing post flop (especially out of position.)
That being said I’ve also seen it made with aces so.....
That being said I’ve also seen it made with aces so.....
Yep, it's a signature move of mine to make that move with AA and occasionally KK against one of our players who never believes I would make that play with a hand that good. He calls every.single.time. 
HaYep, it's a signature move of mine to make that move with AA and occasionally KK against one of our players who never believes I would make that play with a hand that good. He calls every.single.time.
So what’s the thought process here? That 25bb isn’t deep enough to three-bet?
I’d much rather take my chances with a 3-bet of, day 8bb, and then either get it all in, or regroup with 17bb.
Again, it’s almost a waste of time to speculate, without more information. But my take on the shover is that either you want to play this hand or not, and I think there are better ways to accomplish either goal, with 25bb.
Mr Tree
Straight Flush
Chippy’s questions are all germaine. I think villains rarely show up without something of value here, but this could be a move with mid pairs, it could be a tricky play with a massive hand, or it could possibly be someone doing a strange play with an AK type hand. At the root you need to drill down on why he guy is making this bet. If he has shown to be a capable player alarm bells might need to be going off.
The thought process is that you are the one putting pressure on the caller, rather than him putting pressure on you. So let's say you 3-bet with 99 or AT and he shoves, you are in a pickle now. When you shove you put a lot of pressure in hands that are flipping with you like big Two Overs against your pairs and small pairs against your big Two Overs.
Take your own comment for example. If you're only calling that shove with AA, then it's profitable for Villain to shove 25BB with almost any two cards against your opening...
Mr Tree
Straight Flush
What kind of ass three bets with nines pre?
FWIW, my comment only applies in the absence of any other useful information. Of course I’m not only ever calling a 3-bet with AA.
I hear you about applying pressure. I just think there are more efficient ways for the villain to do it. But late position, 25bb, it’s probably close, and I suppose my idiot/maniac comments were a bit extreme.
LOL!!!! You mean 4-bet?
If I remember it right, you open your 99s, I 3-bet with AK and you 4-bet... I nit folded...
It was all made possible because of our previous night discussion about people not 4-bet bluffing enough, LOL!!!
I ended up folding the AK 'cause I underestimated you Tom, LOL!!! And because I was down 5 buy-ins already.
* Sorry for the quick tangent @UKS
Last edited:
Mr Tree
Straight Flush
Lol your memory is better than mine. I just remember the “really???” Look you gave me when I showed.
Mr Tree
Straight Flush
I’d really love any information we can get on villain. I think Chippy is right in asking his questions. In a vacuum I lean to folding less than QQ or possibly AK but I could expand this range depending on what I think villain is trying to accomplish here.
snap fold if the villain looks like the main character from Avatar
I wanted to keep it quite open before I added detail.
Villain has given reasonable action on the table all day. Doubled up 6th hand cracking KK with something like 6Jcc in a 3 bet pot, where they three bet a flop fd and turned the flush.
Recently lost half their big stack to a sponsored pro on the table, with two reasonable hands (flush versus flopped two pair)
Has raised and 3 bet a lot of hands.
Hero has been a been a bit nittier. (But no rock) Recently lost 35% of their stack to the villain (before they lost it to pro) with a flopped straight versus riveted flush. The villain had J4cc in a raised pot.
Villain has given reasonable action on the table all day. Doubled up 6th hand cracking KK with something like 6Jcc in a 3 bet pot, where they three bet a flop fd and turned the flush.
Recently lost half their big stack to a sponsored pro on the table, with two reasonable hands (flush versus flopped two pair)
Has raised and 3 bet a lot of hands.
Hero has been a been a bit nittier. (But no rock) Recently lost 35% of their stack to the villain (before they lost it to pro) with a flopped straight versus riveted flush. The villain had J4cc in a raised pot.
Mr Tree
Straight Flush
I tend to think villain is more likely to be tricky here than making an out and out play. He has played some suboptimal holdings to bust opponents in the past but he saw a flop and waited until he had some equity to push. I would only call with premium hands here and would likely set down AK as getting away is cheap and you are likely 50/50 at best with it. Definitely call with KK and obviously AA...I’m on the fence about QQ. One important note, a fold is a relatively cheap mistake here in relation to the blinds and or current investment.
Last edited:
Steve Birrer
Two Pair
I am folding in this spot with anything but AA or KK.
If you haven't seen him shove pre-flop with sub-optimal holdings (vs merely 3-beting or calling raises), then there is no reason to believe he's doing it here. I'd suspect that he has a decent hand and really doesn't want to see a flop -- most pairs plus AK/AQ, minus AA or KK, with which he'd want to re-raise to get a call or induce a shove on your part. So I'm really only calling here with large pairs QQ+, which I expect to be dominating almost all of his holdings. Letting go of AK however, no need to put that much of my stack in the middle on a coin flip. Including QQ in my calling range because it's only a flip if he has AK, and it's dominating everything else he might have.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Just for your future reference @UKS, the questions @Chippy McChiperson asked are always relevant and someone in the strategy forum will always ask a number of these questions in response to a post where the information is lacking. So I am not sure what you are trying to gain from withholding that in the initial conversation.
Now that said and now that you have filled in a little more history about villian, I think I am calling with a good hunk of my opening range against a guy willing to show up with jxs in other big spots. So surely JJ+/AK/AQ, and probably down to to TT or 99 absent physical reads etc. With this calling range I crush most pocket pairs and ax randoms, and I'm probably no worse than a 2-1 dog except against high pairs, which may not be something with which guy like this would even shove 25 bb.
That at least feels like a safe staring point to me, my typical ep opening range isn't too much wider than what's listed anyway.
Now that said and now that you have filled in a little more history about villian, I think I am calling with a good hunk of my opening range against a guy willing to show up with jxs in other big spots. So surely JJ+/AK/AQ, and probably down to to TT or 99 absent physical reads etc. With this calling range I crush most pocket pairs and ax randoms, and I'm probably no worse than a 2-1 dog except against high pairs, which may not be something with which guy like this would even shove 25 bb.
That at least feels like a safe staring point to me, my typical ep opening range isn't too much wider than what's listed anyway.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Create an account or login to comment
You must be a member in order to leave a comment
Create account
Create an account and join our community. It's easy!
Log in
Already have an account? Log in here.
