25NL Zone: Thoughts on this river bet? (1 Viewer)

boltonguy

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Early in this evening's session, folds to Hero in CO with AJo.
Hero RFI 3BB (standard from CO). SB calls, BB folds.

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Flop comes low and paired and V leads for about 1/2 pot.
I think it is possible that V is leading here with his entire range as the flop favors his range and if he has a hand like A7/K7 he wants protection from a turn card that favors my range. I dont think V leads 6x here. This is a "lets get a fold now because CO missed the flop" play with a weak hand IMHO. This is a merged sizing not a polarized sizing suggesting a medium strength hand. 6x leading leaves a lot of money on the table I think. I decide that with 2 overs and position, given the sizing I will call here. In position I can also bluff later streets if the runout is favorable.

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Turn continues to favor V yet he X. This looks weak and I decide to start running a bluff, targeting 7x or any air that missed so far that he may have led flop with. I bet 1/2 pot and V calls.

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River is a Q which I think favors my range here - unless he has Q7.
With A-high I have some SVD, but concerned about losing to a 7 at showdown I decide to fire another bullet and size up to 3/4 pot.
V folds.

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Curious about how I played this hand I put it into the solver, GTO+.
We do see V leading flop at a low frequency (6%) with almost every combo in range including the 6x combos (he does go larger with quads).

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Solver is calling with most of range including AJo but also raising AJo with medium frequency.

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Solver continues to fire turn as SB at 76% frequency probably as this card continues to strongly favor V's range.
Combos that X here at high frequency have pretty much missed the board.

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CO fires here with almost 100% of combos in range at mixed frequencies. Looks like only hand not bet here is K5s. Our combo fires at 20%.

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V is folding 65% to this bet and raising over 2x as often as calling here. Hands that are mostly a call are 7x like K7s, 97s and 33, TT.

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V checks river with a lot of hands that have decent SDV A5s, K7s, 97s, TT, 99, 88, etc and is raising with value and a wide array of bluffs that missed.

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So here is the question - all those hands that will beat me at SD X river. So if I X I am very likely to lose with A-high.
With AJo solver checks river. Solver fires plenty of bluffs here (38% of hands) and mostly uses close to the same sizing when doing so, but for some reason almost purely X AJo.

Anyone have any idea why? I think that a X here from Hero likely loses the hand.
Especially confusing when I see solver bluffing A4s and KJs here.

** Ok so I followed the path of the Finding Equilibrium video and AJ has non-zero equity & EV here. All the hands that solver is betting as bluffs, like AT, have zero equity and zero EV. So it looks like a balance thing - get to SD with the hands with equity, bet big with value and balance with the zero equity hands as bluffs.

I just cant intuitively see how AJ has about 5.5% equity and is +EV yet AT has 0.00% equity and 0EV. Anyone have any thoughts?

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Thinking back to the FE you tube video - GTO+ doesn't have the concept of EV Regret, so I can't see the EV loss of simplifying and betting AJo here I don't think.
 
I think you are overanalyzing. I don't mind the flop call as you have to have overcard continues here. Though I'd much prefer you have a backdoor.

On turn I'm not sure what your bet accomplishes. You are straight up turning your hand into a bluff in a spot where that turn rates to hit hands he was lead bluffing with on the flop. Plus, you were beating all bluffs already. The only thing you can credibly rep is hearts and some occasional overpairs. And obviously you need a 3rd heart river to get that bluff through.

On river I'm not sure what queens you are going to have except QhXh. You may have gotten him to fold a pair here, I'm just not sure this is a line that makes a lot of sense. Because I don't think you have many queens here, I think it's a great spot to have played 88-JJ this way. I think you get calls from nearly all 7s that decided to play this way.

Bottom line, I think you just don't really need to go crazy here. This villain is not balanced and while analyzing like he is has "some" merit, I think it's better to just pay more straight up against weird lines.
 
I think betting the turn is a mistake if your reasoning is to target 7x or any other pair he could possibly have. He is never folding any 7x to a half pot bet...ever. Sorry its just not happening. After he calls the turn I would be done with the hand. Betting on the end to me is silly. He Is calling a river bet with any pair. We either have the best hand with A high or we dont. If we have the best hand with A high hes not calling. If we dont we are losing another bet. We are risking something to gain nothing. All the solvers in the world wont make this a winning play long term
 
Ok guys - he folded pocket eights (88) to my river bet.
I would play an overpair of my own the same way I played this hand and my range is uncapped.
Looks like he should have X/R turn with his OESD ... missed opportunity

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I guess of all the overpairs though, this would be the one to fold since it blocks your bluffs. But still, he played this hand in such a way as to pot control and play defensive on turn and river. What's the point in that if you are just going to fold a pair?
 
This seems like a pretty loose open for zoom, no? You play this wide normally? I probably just fold on the flop lead here, tbh....seems like a hand where we could win a small pot or lose a big one. Worked out for you though.

River bet, you need like 40% folds without doing the math. You think you get that?
 
@grebe AJo is a solid open in CO for 3BB in zoom. A8o is the floor for unsuited Aces in CO in Zoom.
Size of his donk, X turn led me to believe I could get the fold. That's why I bet turn to set up the river bluff if the runout favored my range. I am uncapped and would play 88+ like this. I think my line is very strong.
 
“I just cant intuitively see how AJ has about 5.5% equity and is +EV yet AT has 0.00% equity and 0EV. Anyone have any thoughts?”

Based on your pic it seems that the other guy is checking a lot with AJ specifically but won’t have AT and will bluff with worse ace highs. Your 5.5% comes from when you chop against AJ where AT would lose.
 
“I just cant intuitively see how AJ has about 5.5% equity and is +EV yet AT has 0.00% equity and 0EV. Anyone have any thoughts?”

Based on your pic it seems that the other guy is checking a lot with AJ specifically but won’t have AT and will bluff with worse ace highs. Your 5.5% comes from when you chop against AJ where AT would lose.
Thank you very much for that observation - I hadnt looked at the solve for V's X to see what he is checking. Appreciate it.
 
Unrelated question - since when / why is a 3bb open standard?

“This seems like a pretty loose open for zoom, no?”

:wow: I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that people think opening AJ in the co is loose considering how tight people play at micro zoom pools but yea, optimal open is way way looser and the zoom pool at these stakes tends to be significantly tighter than optimal not looser. You see a small number of people punting hard but many many more are cranking out 500-1k hands an hour by auto folding non premiums when there’s an open in front of them.
 
Standard open is 2.5BB from EP and MP. 3BB is standard fro CO+
This seems backwards...wouldnt you want to open bigger from EP and smaller from later? Because you are gaining positional advantage, it's ok to open wider for smaller late, and tighter for more early.

If you get three bet in this spot with AJo....what do you do?
 
Unrelated question - since when / why is a 3bb open standard?

“This seems like a pretty loose open for zoom, no?”

:wow: I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that people think opening AJ in the co is loose considering how tight people play at micro zoom pools but yea, optimal open is way way looser and the zoom pool at these stakes tends to be significantly tighter than optimal not looser. You see a small number of people punting hard but many many more are cranking out 500-1k hands an hour by auto folding non premiums when there’s an open in front of them.
The reason I ask this is because it is zoom, and people's ranges are much tighter and likelyhood of getting three bet is much higher.
 
This seems backwards...wouldnt you want to open bigger from EP and smaller from later? Because you are gaining positional advantage, it's ok to open wider for smaller late, and tighter for more early.

If you get three bet in this spot with AJo....what do you do?
Play bigger pots IP and smaller OOP.
 
This seems backwards...wouldnt you want to open bigger from EP and smaller from later? Because you are gaining positional advantage, it's ok to open wider for smaller late, and tighter for more early.

If you get three bet in this spot with AJo....what do you do?
Yes as @Legend5555 stated, we open smaller from EP and MP because we are at a positional disadvantage. CO & BN we open larger as, with positional advantage, we are more likely to realize our equity so we want to play larger pots.

I fold to a 3! from SB with AJo in CO.
 
FWIW in terms of the strategy employed and my strategy advice in here...

I understand what you were trying to do and that the solver has some plays to make here. But I'm a big proponent of making decisions as easy as possible and not going overboard on plays against people that just aren't going to care or pay attention. I don't think the marginal value gained is with the extra mental effort and variance required.

I honestly probably just fold to the flop lead of that size with a hand that has nothing but overcard equity. If he had bet smaller, I might peal. But I think especially in a fast fold environment, you are just losing more than you are gaining by spending the time and effort on this type of spot.

Granted, I'm injecting a bit of "live" game mentality into my analysis, but I think that can be somewhat appropriate at the smaller stakes. It's a weird spot to bluff to me. I don't expect to get many folds from pairs. I'm not blocking much. And I can't pick up any equity on the turn except for turning a pair. I just don't see why this is a spot I need to be taking.
 
@Legend5555 I agree with what you are saying here - at these stakes vs this pool moslty playing ABC poker is a winning strategy. I had a rationale in game for making the plays and it felt a bit spewy so I put it in the solver and was a bit surprised to see that the solver would take mostly the same line but was confused about the river X with AJo and the river bet with ATo. The opponent was deeper stacked at 190BB which in my experience is the more thinking player; that played a role in choosing this line compared to a V with <100BB where I would probably play more ABC assuming a less competent (stickier) V. The people that profit here fold to aggression on turn and river (ask me how I know ...) and move on to the next hand. Losers call down.
 
If this analysis was already made I apologize, I haven't read everything in this thread in full...

If I had to guess why bet with AT vs AJ, is because of blockers. If you have a T, it's less likely he has the gutshots like T9 or T8. Thus, you need to bluff with AT because he has more value. With AJ, he has more air, and you don't need to bluff as often to win.
 
This hand in general is a spot where a solver isn't going to work really well though. There isn't really a flatting range from the SB vs CO, so already the solver is kind of off the rails. And there also just aren't many leads as the OOP player. So you are taking the solver down a path that it basically would never do. So the info you get from it here really won't be that reliable or useful.
 
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Interesting on the IP v. OOP as pretty sure this used to be backwards....or maybe more for tournament play? You would want a smaller SPR OOP bigger IP. I guess in deep cash games, or when there is minimal action preflop this makes sense.

HOWEVER, in a typical loose passive 1/2 game I don't think I would play it this way. For a typical open in EP for a TAG....I think opening small is a huge mistake because you are going to get 6 callers behind. However, if you are cutoff and nobody has entered the pot yet, you could easily make a smallish bet knowing that you are likely to be up against the blinds. Maybe this is more exploitative vs. the field than GTO....or maybe it's just plain wrong.
 

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