25NL Zone: Roast my line: Another jam (1 Viewer)

[boltonguy]

25NL Fast fold, 6-max. No reads, no HUDs.

Folds to SB who limps. Hero kicks it up 4x to $1 in BB with ATo.

Monotone flop is good for Hero with Td. V checks and H cbets 1/2 pot. V calls.

Turn is 5h which pairs the board. V checks. Hero bets 1/2 pot again = $1.86. Continuing to semi-bluff diamonds.

V X/R to $5.22 (about 4x).

Hero jams, continuing to semi-bluff diamonds. Only think Hero is worries about is a boat, but I dont think a boat X/R here.
Why get me to fold when they can jam river. This looks like a "let me see if he really has diamonds" and my answer is "yes indeed"

 

[Eriks]

hmmm this is fun. You and I play so differently.

I think the raise pre and cbet are standard. However on the turn I'm checking behind taking a free card to my weakish flush draw. There is also a chance the A high is good if the river goes check/check. We can value bet an ace or a T if he checks to us.

What do we really 3-bet shove for value on the turn? Not 99/44/55 right? Do you shove a flush? 5x? We probably don't have that many though; Ac5c/As5s? What about an overpair without a diamond? I don't have statistics to back it up but my feeling is that we're very unbalanced towards having too many bluffs if we're shoving as weak as AxTd.

What range do you put villain on? You could be stone dead vs like Ad5x or drawing slim vs 65s-K5s.

I think I would need some compelling arguments in favor of this play to become a fan

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

I'm very very much with @Eriks on this one.
Turn is a slam dunk check back. You do have some showdown value and there is no reason to bloat the pot with a T high flushdraw. Even if you hit that flush, what are you gonna do if you get raised on the river?
This and all of the points Erik mentioned makes this a punt when you're shoving on a 3 bet here.

 

[davislane]

I approve of this Jam!

 

[raynmanas]

this is a leak.

 

[warma]

I’m stumped by that jam. You’ve shown several hands where V has crazy cards and some where you got lucky playing loose. Maybe it’s the low stakes? Makes it hard to establish good ranges and seems like a great place to be tight against aggressive players. So I can’t get a good signal from V with a Diamond flop and paired board and I’m not confident you have a winning hand. I think the jam is a coin-flip at best. I hope you win it, but I would have slowed down after that check-raise and paid less for the river.

 

[Legend5555]

I would never bet this turn with this hand. Just try to realize your equity and check back. The jam is just bonkers in a vacuum to me. And Zone is basically a vacuum.

 

[Legend5555]

More specifically, this isn't like there are 2 diamonds on the board and you have like AdTd or even JdTd. At least there you have more merit to betting, especially with JT as you have basically no showdown value. Here you have decent showdown value.

 

[boltonguy]

Appreciate the feedback. V folded. I will download the hole cards later this evening and we can see what she had.
Honestly, based on the action I think he had 5Xo (maybe with one diamond) or air. When V ramps up action on a specific card like this 80%+ of the time this specific card had a huge impact on her hand strength. If she just made a set of 5s I'm toast but my line so far reps the FD so I either check and lose or jam to fold out the set of 5s or the bluff.

I really dont see how I have SDV here - I dont think there is a universe where A-high is good at SD.

Now I do think this is spewy and I wouldnt play like this on ACR with a HUD with >100 hands on V showing him as 23/18.
But there is a lot of cr@p happening in this player pool and some wild bluffs. These two hands are form this weekend and show the type of bluffs that people try to run. It is hard to sniff this out - a lot of it is intuition which is incredibly unreliable and I do call three streets with middle pair vs the nuts at times owing to the bluffing frequencies I see (mostly on weekends - weeknights seem to be more tame).

So I am partially blaming my spew on the pool; not only do I need to call down light sometimes, but the door is also open to run some exploitative bluffs myself. Yeah so far this year I've played over 32k hands over 133 hours and am down $98 so not yet a winning player. My graph looks like a letter M, it goes slowly up, up, up as I grind and make good calls and then a big drop when I jam into the nuts, get sucked out, or make a bad call. But since starting to play ACR with a HUD last month I am net positive so I think I am learning, albeit slowly.

Some insane bluffs from V that Her stations off:

Folds to Hero in SB who RFI to 3x

V calls. Hero c-bets flop. V raises to 4x. Hero calls.

67 get there. Hero X, V fires 3/4 pot. Hero figures "I'm a station, maybe he has J9" and calls.

River checks through. Hero scoops. So the guy was bluffing hard with total air.

Here is another one that baffled me at the time:

Hero opens QQ in UTG. BB flats.

Hero likes the flop and cbets 1/3 to build a pot and let V call wide. Holding a D I'm not super worried about the FD as I partially block that. I understand that I dont really "block" the FD but holding one D slightly decreases the likelihood that V has 2 Ds. Plus if the flush comes in I have outs to 3rd nut flush. So not fast playing here.

Front door flush comes in. Hero bets again for about 1/3 pot and V X/R to 6x. Fishy sizing, plus I have a set and outs/blocker to the flush. I call.

River gives Hero the 3rd nut flush. V leads for about 1/4 pot. Again huge downbet = IMHO fishy sizing on 2 streets. Hero sigh calls.

Hero scoops and V's epic bluff fails.

 

[Eriks]

I really dont see how I have SDV here - I dont think there is a universe where A-high is good at SD.

Not the way you played, no. With a check back turn line though, there’s some SDV and you have plenty of cards that improve your hand to a decent one, but not to one that wants to go to semi bluff war imo

I much more liked how you played the other hands. If there is wild play with lots of weird bluffing going on from your opponents just wait for hands and let them bluff you. I’d bet you she (?) did not have a five but more likely some kind of air.

 

[boltonguy]

I’d bet you she (?) did not have a five but more likely some kind of air.

Just trying to mix pronouns to be politically correct.

 

[boltonguy]

Here's one I didnt have the stones to call ... but should have. Great bluff by V.

Hero opens 99 in +1. SB 3! to 4x. Hero flats.

SB leads for slightly less than 1/3 pot. Hero thinks "No way he hit this flop. Hi 3! range is full of AX. Lets test." and raises 3x.
V calls (wait till you see what he called with - super ballsy call here). I was right with my assessment FWIW I was ahead here but he had hit the board. What do they say, "Its hard to make a pair in NLHE ..."

Turn goes X/X. I should have fired here being IP and the K is good for my range. I think as V 3! it is probably good for his range too. Not sure if this is where I lost the hand.

FD flush comes in and V jams. I have a diamond and partially block the FD and want to call but the K is there too. So I sigh fold.

Now that is my kind of jam! I guess that's why he has a $91 stack now. No guts no glory!
Still cant believe he call my flop raise ... I think X on the K turn is what cost me the hand.

 

[boltonguy]

@Eriks would appreciate your thoughts on the above hand both from Hero & Villain's perspective

 

[Eriks]

@Eriks would appreciate your thoughts on the above hand both from Hero & Villain's perspective

Love to!
pre is standard. I don’t like the flop raise. You have a hand that will be good a lot of the times but it’s hard for villain to continue with a worse hand. And it’s also unlikely he will fold a better one. So we’re not really value betting and we’re not really bluffing. I suppose you’re raising for information (not a good idea imo) but what information did we really get? I would’ve flatted the cbet. I like to keep his range wide and I’m willing to let villain draw to his likely 6 outs.

I’m probably still calling anything reasonable on the turn as villain could use the K/diamonds as a card to continue bluffing on. As played, checking back the turn is reasonable. The king is a much better card for his range.

The river is tough. I guess he put you on just about what you have since you checked back the turn. We’re stuck with a meh hand in a bloated pot and we’re very unsure where we’re at. I honestly don’t know what I would do on the river as played. I think the flop raise is the big mistake in this hand, it just doesn’t make sense.

 

[grebe]

25NL Fast fold, 6-max. No reads, no HUDs.

Folds to SB who limps. Hero kicks it up 4x to $1 in BB with ATo.

View attachment 687791

Monotone flop is good for Hero with Td. V checks and H cbets 1/2 pot. V calls.

View attachment 687792

Turn is 5h which pairs the board. V checks. Hero bets 1/2 pot again = $1.86. Continuing to semi-bluff diamonds.

View attachment 687795

V X/R to $5.22 (about 4x).

View attachment 687796

Hero jams, continuing to semi-bluff diamonds. Only think Hero is worries about is a boat, but I dont think a boat X/R here.
Why get me to fold when they can jam river. This looks like a "let me see if he really has diamonds" and my answer is "yes indeed"

View attachment 687797

You in fact do not have diamonds....you have diamond....and not even the good one. You have A high. I think this is spew. He call/called and this board favors his range over yours. He is playing ranges and bluffing, or playing his actual hand and getting value from his hand BEFORE the next diamond comes. Either way, he outplayed you here....and is probably getting your stack. If you are LUCKY....he has AdX where X is lower than a 9....but that isnt many combos. This should be an easy fold...and it's ok that you are getting bluffed sometimes.

EDIT: I did misread action here. I thought V shoved and you called. I take back some of what I said. If you are feeling the bluff, you have to go for it. I don't think I would have made that bet and planned to see that money come back though.

 

[boltonguy]

I don’t like the flop raise. You have a hand that will be good a lot of the times but it’s hard for villain to continue with a worse hand. And it’s also unlikely he will fold a better one. So we’re not really value betting and we’re not really bluffing. I suppose you’re raising for information (not a good idea imo) but what information did we really get? I would’ve flatted the cbet. I like to keep his range wide and I’m willing to let villain draw to his likely 6 outs.

So good point that I cant get better hands to fold with a flop bet or worse hands to call but if we could see villain's cards face up here would you just call? I think my goal with this raise is that I am confident that my hand is likely good right now but needs protection and I want to block V from realizing his equity with overcards on turn/river. If I am up against AK, AQ, AJ, AT etc at this point I dont want to see a turn or river if I can avoid it. I feel like calling gives V the chance to realize his equity on turn or river. Thoughts? Do we just call while we are ahead and hope for a good runout?

 

[Frogzilla]

Pre fine

Flop if you’re going half pot this is probably a check, I’d rather have a 1/3 sizing and this hand can bet that

Turn is absolutely terrible, just check back

 

[Eriks]

So good point that I cant get better hands to fold with a flop bet or worse hands to call but if we could see villain's cards face up here would you just call? I think my goal with this raise is that I am confident that my hand is likely good right now but needs protection and I want to block V from realizing his equity with overcards on turn/river. If I am up against AK, AQ, AJ, AT etc at this point I dont want to see a turn or river if I can avoid it. I feel like calling gives V the chance to realize his equity on turn or river. Thoughts? Do we just call while we are ahead and hope for a good runout?

6 outs is just 12% on the next card. Raising to fold out overcards is more of a tournament play where survival is the top priority and every chip you can safely add to your stack is good. In a cashgame we want to take the lines that earns us the most profit on average vs villains range.

 

[Legend5555]

I think my goal with this raise is that I am confident that my hand is likely good right now but needs protection and I want to block V from realizing his equity with overcards on turn/river. If I am up against AK, AQ, AJ, AT etc at this point I dont want to see a turn or river if I can avoid it.

This is poor logic. You don't make money by making people fold inferior hands when you have the equity advantage. You don't want to blow people off 6 out hands.

 

[boltonguy]

So if you call flop and he bets on the K and jams the river when the FD comes in is the goal just to call turn and fold river and just lose a few dollars less?

 

[Legend5555]

So if you call flop and he bets on the K and jams the river when the FD comes in is the goal just to call turn and fold river and just lose a few dollars less?

Generally, yes. But there are lots of scenarios where you just get to showdown with the best hand that balance this out.

 

[Eriks]

That would seem reasonable. Most people won’t fire 3 barrels with nothing

 

[Coyote]

I'm very very much with @Eriks on this one.

Yeah, unless you 're playing against each other

 

[AR_poker]

Not the way you played, no. With a check back turn line though, there’s some SDV and you have plenty of cards that improve your hand to a decent one, but not to one that wants to go to semi bluff war imo

I much more liked how you played the other hands. If there is wild play with lots of weird bluffing going on from your opponents just wait for hands and let them bluff you. I’d bet you she (?) did not have a five but more likely some kind of air.

+1.

With two relatively clean overs and an okay-enough diamond, we're doing fine equity-wise against villain's range, and getting x/r'd on the turn and having to give up our equity is a disaster. I'm checking back and racing to showdown. When checked to unimproved on the river, we can target the hands we would've targeted for folds on the turn (e.g. 33, 64 suited, etc.), or check back and beat villain's unpaired KdXx, QdXx, JdXx hands. I'm probably just checking back and expecting to lose the majority of the time, but I don't think this hand is a good bluff candidate.

As played, I'm folding to the turn x/r. Good on you to get a bluff through, though.

 

[boltonguy]

Total fish fight - he had total air.

Look at this turn X/R from V. Total air - just beautiful. I think if I had X turn he would have jammed river and see above for how that works out.
I think this is exploitative & aggro play that these guys use at anonymous Zone to make $$$.
On a board with a lot of bluffs X/R big to see if you can fold out the opponent.
At times I have thought, maybe I should 3bet every hand from HJ, CO, BN, SB & BB - what would that look like? I'm not doing it but ...
Given that behavior doesnt follow players there is a lot of opportunity! So clearly different than live or non-anonymous w/HUD.
Good news is I'm catching on and firing back at them! Or maybe that's a bad thing??!!

Jam away!

Hero scoops!

 

[warma]

Thanks for posting.

 

[Eriks]

Total fish fight - he had total air.

Look at this turn X/R from V. Total air - just beautiful. I think if I had X turn he would have jammed river and see above for how that works out.
I think this is exploitative & aggro play that these guys use at anonymous Zone to make $$$.
On a board with a lot of bluffs X/R big to see if you can fold out the opponent.
At times I have thought, maybe I should 3bet every hand from HJ, CO, BN, SB & BB - what would that look like? I'm not doing it but ...
Given that behavior doesnt follow players there is a lot of opportunity! So clearly different than live or non-anonymous w/HUD.
Good news is I'm catching on and firing back at them! Or maybe that's a bad thing??!!

You should look to keep the pot small with marginal holdings where you have showdown value. If you check back the turn you can certainly make the call with A high on a number of river cards. Sure if he jams (would be a crazy overbet in that case) just fold. It's completely fine to get bluffed off the best hand once in a while. We're playing against villains' ranges not their actual hands in retrospect. If we never get bluffed, we're just not folding enough.

It's also fine to fight back if there're a lot of bluffing going on but choose your situations more wisely. This seems a lot like blind aggression. Pick spots were you have a lot stronger semi bluffs, and/or where you have no showdown value, and/or on boards that favor your ranges over villain's, and/or where you have good card removal.

Although I would argue that most of your profit vs bad players is going to come from getting good hands and value betting them, or calling down their weird bluffs.

 

[warma]

Knowing what we know now, you might also have been able to extract more value after the river if you just called…

 

[Nerxa]

Your flop sizing is bad, this board is better for him than you and you don't hold the nut diamond, you can bet 1/3rd or check back these flops when you open utg. This is more profitable in the long run While this player seems like an omega whale from this hand alone, he might just be aware that he has a huge range advantage on you on this board. A better line here is check flop call turn and evaluate river if you think A high is good. Re-bluffing with no nut blocker is a leak.