Cash Game 25c/50c vs 1/2 set breakdown - why is different? (1 Viewer)

Mental Nomad

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Looking at the recent "post your preferred breakdown" thread posts raised questions in my head which I'd like to see discussed. (25c/50c thread and $1/$2 thread)

Ostensibly, a 25c/50c game and a $1/$2 game are both, in blinds terms, "1/2" games.

This might imply that the number of 25c chips required for the one is the same as the number of $1 chips required for the other.

But no, mostly people say they need more dollar chips than quarter chips.

It might imply that, since the next chip up from the 25c is 4x at $1, and the jump from the $1 to the next chip up is 5x at $5, perhaps the right number of $1s in a $1/$2 game is 1.25 times as many quarters in the 25c/50c game.

But no, most people seem to need even more than that.

So... I accept that this is what people want. I'd just like to know why.

Is it something about the stakes that changes the kinds of people likely to play?
Is it something about the chip ratios that makes the $1 more of a work chip in $1/$2 than the 25c is in the 25c/50c?
Is it something inherent about quarter chips that make them less desirable? (Mismatched chip because the set has no native frac, or the sole hotstamped chip in an inlaid set, the sole solid in the set, etc.)

Or do you think it's something else, entirely?

Or is it just ineffable?
 
I could be completely wrong. At a .25/.50 game if feels like the one dollar chip is the work horse. At a 1/2 game the five dollar chip is the work horse.
 
Ostensibly, a 25c/50c game and a $1/$2 game are both, in blinds terms, "1/2" games.

This might imply that the number of 25c chips required for the one is the same as the number of $1 chips required for the other.

But no, everyone seems to need more dollar chips than quarter chips.

The reason is simple -- once you have 4x 25c chips in play, you use more dollars than quarters - and generally speaking, quarter chips are used only for the blinds - any pre-flop raises (and basically all flop bets) are likely to be made using dollar chips.

But when you have 4x $1 chips in play you still use dollars. A raise might use $5 chips, sure - but it's pretty common for it to use both $5 and $1 chips (example: an $8 raise uses one $5 chip but 3x $1 chips).

The $1 chip gets used a lot more in 1//2 than does the quarter chip in 25c/.50c..... and why more are desired.
 
Maybe it's just as simple as the fact that since there's 4 quarters to a dollar, but 5 singles to a five, you'd have to use more dollars, making random, exact change bets.
 
For me, it's partially what Dave said, but a couple of additional things:

25c//50c plays proportionally bigger for me than $1/$2... So if I have $3k on the table at $1/$2, I might have a lot closer to $3K than to $750 at 25c/50c... Because of that, the workhorse of the smaller game is also the $5s kinda split with the $1...

The raise in the bigger game sometimes needs $1s as the raises in the smaller games never needs 25c...

So if you have a barrel+ of 25c for the smaller game, you'd still need lots of $1s and $5s because of the size of the game, not good to have too many chips of 3 different denoms, imo... A barrel+ of $1s on the bigger game is a good thing since it's used more and there's need for less change...
 
The raise in the bigger game sometimes needs $1s as the raises in the smaller games never needs 25c...
.

I've read this here a lot and I don't understand it. Do I play in the only game where people like to raise $1.75 or $3.50 or $6.25?
 
I've read this here a lot and I don't understand it. Do I play in the only game where people like to raise $1.75 or $3.50 or $6.25?

Not sure if the game u play in is the only one in which players do that... The small games I play in the raise is around $3 for a pot with no straddles... In a $1/$2, raises are between $7 to $12 also with no straddles...

That's my experience and it's all I can tell you... Loads of different games out there...
 
Not sure if the game u play in is the only one in which players do that... The small games I play in the raise is around $3 for a pot with no straddles... In a $1/$2, raises are between $7 to $12 also with no straddles...

That's my experience and it's all I can tell you... Loads of different games out there...

My game almost never has even dollar amount raises (.25/.50c NLHE). Like it's probably 95% fractional amounts like 1.50, 1.75, 2.50 etc and because of this I have more quarters then most would ever plan to have.
 
In games I play in, when the blinds are .25/.50, raises tend to be in full dollar amounts ($3 or more), so we jump immediately to $1 and $5 chips. In $1/2 games, we may still have raises that use the $1 chips (like $7 or $12). So, for a single table, I only need 100 x .25c, but I will need 200 x $1, regardless of the blinds.
 
I have players in my $0.25/$0.50 games who always bet in fractions of a dollar. $6.75 rather than $7, $3.25 rather than $3 or $4.

I also have players who systematically use their $0.25 chips first when putting chips in the pot or will top off a call with a dollar or two of quarters. So when calling a $6 bet, they put in four dollar chips and eight quarters. Oh - and this makes me CRANKY - then they run out of quarters and need to make change, sometimes even on the same hand where they dumped a fist full of quarters in the pot the street before.

Plus, quarters are yummy, sexy chips that deserve to be on the table in quantity if possible -=- DrStrange
 
Maybe it's just as simple as the fact that since there's 4 quarters to a dollar, but 5 singles to a five, you'd have to use more dollars, making random, exact change bets.

If it were that simple, then you'd only need 25% more dollars than quarters - for every four quarters, you'd need five dollars. So, if people liked 100 quarters in the 25c/50c set, they'd like 125 dollars in the 1/2 set. But that's not what we're seeing. People like 100 quarters, but 200 dollars. That's double.

In games I play in, when the blinds are .25/.50, raises tend to be in full dollar amounts ($3 or more), so we jump immediately to $1 and $5 chips. In $1/2 games, we may still have raises that use the $1 chips (like $7 or $12).

So the $7 bet in an $1/2 game (3.5 times the big) is kinda like a $1.25 bet in the 25c/50c game. You think a $7 bet is more acceptable in 1/2 than a buck and a quarter? Or at least, more common? Or, if you think of a $7 bet in $1/2 as BB + one big chip, then it's like a $1.50 bet in 25c/50c. People don't bet 50c increments in a 50c game? Is that because of some perception that it's just a fraction of a dollar? A psychological connection to the unit being smaller than "one?"

But when you have 4x $1 chips in play you still use dollars. A raise might use $5 chips, sure - but it's pretty common for it to use both $5 and $1 chips (example: an $8 raise uses one $5 chip but 3x $1 chips).

I think this may really be getting to the root of it. Let's ignore the actual posting of the blinds and assume that people predominantly bet in multiples of the big blind. If we look at bets of 1x, 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x, 7x, 8x the big blind, what do we get?

in 25c/50c:
.50, 1.00, 1.50, 2.00, 2.50, 3.00, 3.50, 4.00...

quarters needed for those bets (assuming you also have dollars):
2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0

Half the time we need two quarters, half we need none... so the average number of quarters needed is 1. And how frequently do you need quarters? Only 50% of the time.

Two simple metrics. How about in $1/$2:
2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20...

dollars needed:
2, 4, 1, 3, 0, 2, 4, 1, 3, 0

Average number of dollars needed? Two - twice as many as quarters. And how often do we need dollars? 80% of the time. So 80% of the time, if we have no dollars, we're making change - instead of 50% of the time with quarters.

So we end up needing twice as many dollars to make the bets, and we need them a lot more often.

That, I think, makes up the bigger part of the need for a lot

more dollars in the game to avoid making change too often.

(Side note - even if you do this exercise with 25c and $1 increments instead of 50c and $2, you still need more dollars than quarters - average 1.5 quarters, but average 2 dollars... and you still need dollars more often, 80% of the time to 75% of the time.)

Oh - and this makes me CRANKY

YES. THIS. AGREED.

Also, in my Two-Bit game, we use a half-quarter for the small blind. There's often one person trying to hoard them, just so they can bet eight of them as a dollar. Which does nothing to redistribute them, because one person is going to win them... and then the hoarder becomes the small blind and, half the time, has none of them left....
 
At my house, we usually play limit/circus games, but once in a while I'll host a .50c/50c NL game and I will use 100 x 50c. I too find the same thing, most players will just round the betting to $2, $3, $5, etc. only using the fracs for posting blinds or if they have enough, the will bet $2 with 4x50c chips.

A related question i have is at $1/$2, do you all find that the game runs generally "looser" with more $1s in play or more $5s in play? Usually when I play in a casino (Vegas, Commerce or Bike in LA), the $5's are the work horse, however I did play in a $1/$3 no limit at the Morongo Indian Casino last year and they used all $1's. Very strange action as the bets and raises seemed on a smaller scale than i am used to, but on the other hand there were a lot of preflop all-ins. It may also be a factor of the buyin limits or just the location, but i am not sure. I only played for a few hours, so I didn't have a good feel if that was normal for the room or not. I know i wan't a fan of all $1 chips, though.
 
If it were that simple, then you'd only need 25% more dollars than quarters - for every four quarters, you'd need five dollars.

I'm not sure that's right. Because if you're talking about the various possible combinations that are bet throughout a game, using exact change, you're talking about:
1 quarter plus 2 quarters plus 3 quarters = 6
vs
1 dollar plus 2 dollars plus 3 dollars plus 4 dollars = 10

I often think mathematically, but I don't like thinking about math. Any math guys out there?
 
@Mental Nomad: tl;dr. But a $7 bet in 1/2 could be anything. There could be two limpers and the raiser is just raising the amount in the pot. Or he could like 7s. Or he only has $7. Or he's just @bentax1978. :whistle: :whistling:

And, yes, it is more acceptable. Like @DrStrange, frac bets give me a twitchy eye. :)
 
I have players in my $0.25/$0.50 games who always bet in fractions of a dollar. $6.75 rather than $7, $3.25 rather than $3 or $4.

I used to deal a combo 25c/50c pot -limit and 50c/$1 no-limit game where house rules forbid any fractional bets beyond the pre-flop betting round. The actual pot was always 'rounded-up' to the nearest dollar on the flop for anybody who declared 'pot' as his bet. Definitely made the game run much faster with less reliance on the fractional chips, with very little impact to actual pot sizes. Seemed a bit odd at first, but as a dealer, I liked it.

Also, in my Two-Bit game, we use a half-quarter for the small blind. There's often one person trying to hoard them, just so they can bet eight of them as a dollar. Which does nothing to redistribute them, because one person is going to win them... and then the hoarder becomes the small blind and, half the time, has none of them left....
You obviously need more bits. :)
 
I have players in my $0.25/$0.50 games who always bet in fractions of a dollar. $6.75 rather than $7, $3.25 rather than $3 or $4.

I also have players who systematically use their $0.25 chips first when putting chips in the pot or will top off a call with a dollar or two of quarters. So when calling a $6 bet, they put in four dollar chips and eight quarters. Oh - and this makes me CRANKY - then they run out of quarters and need to make change, sometimes even on the same hand where they dumped a fist full of quarters in the pot the street before.
-=- DrStrange

This is the exact reason I changed one of my games to 1/1, it slows the game down so much. Guys will count out fractional calls yet they will have a stack of 1's and 5's in front of them. :mad:
 
You obviously need more bits. :)

You may be right... but I got fifty pink bits (NCV) with my Boardwalks, and I get 40 of them in play in the first ten buy-ins. If I put more on the table, I'd probably just instigate more hoarding, so someone could call an 8-bit bet with 8 bits!
 
In the .25/.50 game I play in the game plays bigger then a $1/$2 game would with the same crowd. Open raises are usually $2.50 vs probably $7 in 1/2. Add a few limpers and the opening raise is often $4-$5 (sometimes people open $7)

I think it's a psychological aspect in that they aren't playing for much money. Once the pot increases most people will bet in multiples of $1 in both games hence the need for more $1s
 

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