2/5/10 PLO Line Check (1 Viewer)

[Anthony Martino]

This is a hand I lost, so we'll get that out of the way upfront. But wanted to check my line and thought process here and get some feedback.

We are playing 2/5 PLO with a $10 rock (posted by the previous hands winner as a forced straddle, no additional straddles are permitted)

Hero is in for $1,500 and has run that up to $1,900. Hero has a tight/solid image. Villain in this hand is sitting to my immediate left, and is the best PLO player in the room. Hero tends to be a "puller" (trying to see multiway flops to stack the fish who pay off with non-nut hands) and Villain tends more towards pushing (i.e. getting pots headsup or three-handed)

The rock is in EP, there are two limpers for $10. Hero is the CO with:



Hero raises to $25. This is Heros standard raise size, meant to juice pots but keep them multi-way (and to allow hero to call if repotted). Hero will do this with a number of holdings, although they tend to be stronger ones. For instance, hero isn't likely to do this very often with a hand like:

but would do it with hands like:

or

or



Anyway, Villain on the button reraises to $90 and it's folded to Hero who just calls. Hero only calls because Villain covers Hero, both are very deep and if he repops here it gives away half his hand to the astute Villain.

Flop

Hero opts to check to the aggressor, which is a standard line. Sometimes Villain will check back, sometimes he will c-bet. Villain bets $225. Hero calls. This flop isn't all that scary. Villain needs to hold exactly KKxx here to have Hero in trouble. It's unlikely Villain has reraised pre with low cards that would hit the 53 on the board, as that's not Villains style. He's heavily weighted to medium to high rundowns, suited broadways, doubled paired hands (when those are higher cards), etc.

So Hero calls, wanting to pot-control as we're still deep, but also wanting to keep in Villains bluffs or hands that are behind.

Turn is the

This shouldn't change much of Villains hand strength, except the possibility of a club flush. Hero again elects to check and Villain bets $450

Hero felt this was his decision point. If he just calls out of position going to the river, he has $1,100 behind with a pot that is now over $1,550. If I make my river flush it's unlikely Villain will pay it off. If the river is a club I have no blockers and Villain could bluff me off the best hand and is fully capable of doing so. If the river brings a broadway card, Villain might make two pair to beat Hero if I'm ahead right now.

At the time I felt like I had the best hand, wouldn't get paid if I rivered my flush and didn't want to just call and let Villain hit two pair or a flush to beat me, and opted to shove it in. Villain called and held and busted my first buyin.

I spoke with a couple of other players I respect in the game, and they said they'd just call his $450 bet there. What do you guys think?

 

[toynoob]

This is a hand I lost, so we'll get that out of the way upfront. But wanted to check my line and thought process here and get some feedback.

We are playing 2/5 PLO with a $10 rock (posted by the previous hands winner as a forced straddle, no additional straddles are permitted)

Hero is in for $1,500 and has run that up to $1,900. Hero has a tight/solid image. Villain in this hand is sitting to my immediate left, and is the best PLO player in the room. Hero tends to be a "puller" (trying to see multiway flops to stack the fish who pay off with non-nut hands) and Villain tends more towards pushing (i.e. getting pots headsup or three-handed)

The rock is in EP, there are two limpers for $10. Hero is the CO with:



Hero raises to $25. This is Heros standard raise size, meant to juice pots but keep them multi-way (and to allow hero to call if repotted). Hero will do this with a number of holdings, although they tend to be stronger ones. For instance, hero isn't likely to do this very often with a hand like:

but would do it with hands like:

or

or



Anyway, Villain on the button reraises to $90 and it's folded to Hero who just calls. Hero only calls because Villain covers Hero, both are very deep and if he repops here it gives away half his hand to the astute Villain.

Flop

Hero opts to check to the aggressor, which is a standard line. Sometimes Villain will check back, sometimes he will c-bet. Villain bets $225. Hero calls. This flop isn't all that scary. Villain needs to hold exactly KKxx here to have Hero in trouble. It's unlikely Villain has reraised pre with low cards that would hit the 53 on the board, as that's not Villains style. He's heavily weighted to medium to high rundowns, suited broadways, doubled paired hands (when those are higher cards), etc.

So Hero calls, wanting to pot-control as we're still deep, but also wanting to keep in Villains bluffs or hands that are behind.

Turn is the

This shouldn't change much of Villains hand strength, except the possibility of a club flush. Hero again elects to check and Villain bets $450

Hero felt this was his decision point. If he just calls out of position going to the river, he has $1,100 behind with a pot that is now over $1,550. If I make my river flush it's unlikely Villain will pay it off. If the river is a club I have no blockers and Villain could bluff me off the best hand and is fully capable of doing so. If the river brings a broadway card, Villain might make two pair to beat Hero if I'm ahead right now.

At the time I felt like I had the best hand, wouldn't get paid if I rivered my flush and didn't want to just call and let Villain hit two pair or a flush to beat me, and opted to shove it in. Villain called and held and busted my first buyin.

I spoke with a couple of other players I respect in the game, and they said they'd just call his $450 bet there. What do you guys think?

For a lot of us those stakes are so hi our input is meaningless.. but just for the sake of it, the guys who said just call $450. What did they say to do on river?

 

[Payback]

Can't read the wall of text while I'm playing myself, but preflop is a disaster. There is $47 in the pot when you call with all the dead money. That raise has to be much larger. The cumulative effect is the button raise is larger and then you can 4 bet with most of your stack in.

 

[Hornet]

There’s a lot to digest here, but I don’t like the turn shove. All you have is an overpair, potentially counterfeit draws, and the nfd.

I don’t love the pf play either. I will 4-bet in position with a range of hands, not just AAxx for the reason you describe. EDIT ... ignore that, as I see you’re OOP. Agree with sizing the pf raise larger.

There are many ways you can play this hand, but if I’m going to go broke with it, it will be on the flop, not the turn.

 

[Anthony Martino]

For a lot of us those stakes are so hi our input is meaningless.. but just for the sake of it, the guys who said just call $450. What did they say to do on river?

Evaluate based on board texture

Can't read the wall of text while I'm playing myself, but preflop is a disaster. There is $47 in the pot when you call with all the dead money. That raise has to be much larger. The cumulative effect is the button raise is larger and then you can 4 bet with most of your stack in.

There's:

$2 from SB
$5 from BB
$10 from rock
$20 from two limpers

So $37 should be the pot size which would get rounded up to $40 for raise sizing

If I do a pot size raise here that's 3x$10 = $30 + $40 = $70

So then the pot size would be $40+$70 = $110. If Villain repots here that's:

3x$70 + $110 = $320

So then the pot is $320 + $110 = $430

then if I repot we're at:

3x$320 = $960 + $430 = $1,390 which gives away our hand but also commits our stack essentially at that juncture, which is a fine spot to be in.

Again, I still tend more towards getting to a flop before I start committing most of the time when playing deep, which is why I tend towards the smaller juicer raises with a wider range than AAxx.

There’s a lot to digest here, but I don’t like the turn shove. All you have is an overpair, potentially counterfeit draws, and the nfd.

I don’t love the pf play either. I will 4-bet in position with a range of hands, not just AAxx for the reason you describe.

There are many ways you can play this hand, but if I’m going to go broke with it, it will be on the flop, not the turn.

I was thinking that too, that the check-pot on the flop might've been the better play with two cards to come.

 

[Hornet]

I was thinking that too, that the check-pot on the flop might've been the better play with two cards to come.

That’s typically what I would do there, probably with a slightly larger pf raise. It’s a higher variance play, but you’ve got some fold equity and it keeps you from having to make a really hard decision on the turn.

 

[Payback]

Evaluate based on board texture



There's:

$2 from SB
$5 from BB
$10 from rock
$20 from two limpers

So $37 should be the pot size which would get rounded up to $40 for raise sizing

If I do a pot size raise here that's 3x$10 = $30 + $40 = $70

Your "call" counts into a pot sized raise so a pot size raise is $50 more or $60 total.

 

[WedgeRock]

This guy is the best player at the table? Like better than you?

The flop is the flop, nothing you can do about that. He outflopped you.

But preflop, you're out of position against him and you want to play it cute with a flat of his re-raise to hide your hand strength?

Is that your best play? Against this opponent? Out of position?

 

[Anthony Martino]

This guy is the best player at the table? Like better than you?

The flop is the flop, nothing you can do about that. He outflopped you.

But preflop, you're out of position against him and you want to play it cute with a flat of his re-raise to hide your hand strength?

Is that your best play? Against this opponent? Out of position?

Yes, he's better than me, as is one other regular in the game. I usually try to target the weaker players to win stacks, I know where my bread is buttered.

And I'm not at all "playing it cute". It's an extremely smart play given how deep we are to not repop him if I can't either get stacks in preflop with my hand or create such a low SPR on the flop that my decisions are automatic.

If I repop him here, my hand will be face-up, he'll know I have AAxx and he'll have an even bigger advantage going to the flop than just his position and skill. His implied odds are too good combined with his positional advantage if I reraise here, because he'll just call and see the flop, I'll be OOP with him knowing half of my hand.

 

[DrStrange]

Please don't post results. There is a lot of material to discuss over every street. Best to do that sequentially.

Villain reads would prove handy. I'd like to know a lot more about how this one plays post flop. Same thing with Hero's table image.

Hero's "standard" preflop raise size seems misguided. There is $47 in the pot once Hero catches up to the rock, then a $15 raise? That is less than a third pot. Basically a pot sweetener. Perhaps that is the intent, but I'd rather a bigger raise.

Villain 3-bets. I can appreciate how Hero could elect to flat vs 4-bet. Hero will have something like $1,600 left behind after that 4-bet with his hand rather tightly defined.

Without some sort of villain reads it is difficult to range villain's 3-bet. For many villains the preflop 3-bet alone sharply defines her/his hand.

The flop seems "safe" enough. Perhaps not so much depending on how tight villain's 3-bet range is. One wonders what hands villain is c-betting on aside from a set. I think villain's hand is polarized, though how much of the range is bluffs depend greatly on how we think villain plays. Flatting isn't too wrong. Hero has eleven outs to the flush or top set only one of which is tainted.

Turn is a brick. Hero checks and villain bets 2/3 pot. Here again we would greatly benefit from reads. This is either a set or a double barrel bluff. I guess villain could also hold the other two aces. So what is hero to make of the situation? We don't know enough to make an informed decision.

If villain has a set, hero has nine outs for a winner. 20% equity while putting in 28% of the cash. Perhaps not getting paid much if the flush hits, perhaps not even on top set.

If villain has junk, then hero is likely only fading something like eight outs. But hero will have to call a 3rd barrel with a pair of aces . . . tough to do this deep.

I think a raise is a mistake, it folds villain's junk and gets called by top set. I.e. a big RIO mistake.

Folding and calling seem close, though I vote fold. Hero's hand is somewhat face up on the flush draw. < remember Hero thinks villain folds to big bet vs a flushing river.>

I call it fold > call >>> raise -=- DrStrange

PS I might think differently if I had to think without knowing the results. Just saying.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Hero's "standard" preflop raise size seems misguided. There is $47 in the pot once Hero catches up to the rock, then a $15 raise? That is less than a third pot. Basically a pot sweetener. Perhaps that is the intent, but I'd rather a bigger raise.

I mention that is my intent in the OP. I tend to play as a puller in games, I want multi-way pots. It makes it harder for the more skilled players I'm up against to make bets facing multiple opponents without being strongly nutted (i.e. reduces their bluffs) and it keeps the weaker opponents in who are likely to pay off with non-nut straights, weak flushes, underfulls, etc.

Without some sort of villain reads it is difficult to range villain's 3-bet. For many villains the preflop 3-bet alone sharply defines her/his hand.

I mentioned this in the OP as well, stated "He's heavily weighted to medium to high rundowns, suited broadways, doubled paired hands (when those are higher cards), etc." He isn't prone to reraise me with garbage. So KKxx is certainly in his range, AAxx, AKJT suited, 9TJQ double suited, QQJJ, etc.

 

[mipevi]

Being HU deep OOP in PLO against a good, aggressive player is the worst. Don’t know if villain was already there when hero arrived, but if he was, maybe buy-in for just $500 in that seat.

Given hero’s strategy and not knowing limpers’ stack sizes, the sweetener preflop seems ok. But I think with the dynamic vs. the villain in play, hands like this could be in hero’s calling range just as well. Does hero have a 4-bet range in this spot, or is he always flatting/folding?

On the flop it kinda sucks that hero’s hand blocks the 2nd nut flush draw. Villain is a good player, so he will take advantage of position on later streets (free card when behind or taking hero to valuetown). Hero does have a disguised hand, so I think we may get some loose calls/shoves and would raise to $580, willing to get it in here.

As played, the turn is difficult. If it was a non-heart T, I would like the check/shove. Villain’s barreling tendencies matter a lot, but I guess call and decide on the river. Hero still has a lot of chips behind and doesn’t need to commit here. Yes the river will be difficult, but such is life HU deep OOP in PLO.

 

[detroitdad]

Anthony,

I don't understand the concept of "puller". Especially in these higher variance games. I do respect that your putting yourself out there for all to critique in an open forum.

I'm enjoying it. Thanks. Looking forward to throwing cards with you in a few months. Just take it easy on us amateurs please.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Does hero have a 4-bet range in this spot, or is he always flatting/folding?

Given how deep we are, I can't 4-bet because villain then knows half my hand here. If I was able to get it all-in preflop or reraise such that our SPR on the flop was low to make my decision automatic, that would be a different story

Anthony,

I don't understand the concept of "puller". Especially in these higher variance games. I do respect that your putting yourself out there for all to critique in an open forum.

Preflop hand values for the most part run close together, which is why seeing the flop is so important when playing deep

I want multiway pots most of the time, rather than headsup ones

With 5+ people seeing the flop it:

1. Makes it harder for the better players in the game to bluff me off my equity, because this game is very nutty, and with so many players seeing the flop, the chances of the nuts being out is high

2. The weaker players want to play as many hands as possible. Allowing them to see flops cheaply keeps them happy and entertained

3. The weaker players tend to play poor hands and flop non-nut draws, or flop the nuts with no redraws and get freerolled. Basically I do everything I can to keep the weaker players in, as they will dump their stacks with non-nut straights, flushes, underfulls

One or two hands per session can make or break you. I'm trying to keep pots manageable until I feel I have an equity edge, then make the pots large

After this guy cracked me, I rebought for $400, ran it up to 1k, then got it in as a 70% favorite with top set (held KKT6 on a KJ36 board) against his AQJT and he rivered the 9 to get me again

 

[kirchhausen]

Yes, he's better than me, as is one other regular in the game. I usually try to target the weaker players to win stacks, I know where my bread is buttered.

And I'm not at all "playing it cute". It's an extremely smart play given how deep we are to not repop him if I can't either get stacks in preflop with my hand or create such a low SPR on the flop that my decisions are automatic.

If I repop him here, my hand will be face-up, he'll know I have AAxx and he'll have an even bigger advantage going to the flop than just his position and skill. His implied odds are too good combined with his positional advantage if I reraise here, because he'll just call and see the flop, I'll be OOP with him knowing half of my hand.

You should re-pop him here. If you think that makes your hand face up, you should include other hands in your 4-bet range.

 

[Rhodeman77]

You should re-pop him here. If you think that makes your hand face up, you should include other hands in your 4-bet range.

Exactly this!

A pot size bet preflop is mandatory. When he 3 bets then it will be larger, or he may just call even since you bet would be bigger, we’ll never know though.

I agree with @Hornet that if you are getting the money all-in the flop is the spot to do it. Especially if there is an opportunity to run it twice.

Hero needs more more hands in his 4 bet range.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Especially if there is an opportunity to run it twice.

Hero needs more more hands in his 4 bet range.

Heros policy is to only run it once. If Villains know they can run it twice against you, they'll push harder in spots where there's an opportunity to make you fold, knowing if they get called they have a 2nd board to save them.

Also, this player I'm up against also only runs it once as well, so even if I go twice, he won't.

What other hands would you guys 4-bet OOP here against the best player in the room? What are your plans with those hands if 5-bet?

 

[surfik]

I would just call 450...

 

[Anthony Martino]

I would just call 450...

What are your plans if a broadway card hits the river that doesn't complete your flush? What are your plans if you hit your flush? What if you hit your flush but it pairs the board? What if a brick hits the river (let's say a that is unlikely to have helped your opponent) what are your plans? What if a club hits the river, what do you do then?

 

[Hornet]

What other hands would you guys 4-bet OOP here against the best player in the room? What are your plans with those hands if 5-bet?

Double suited run downs. When you 4-bet, you are pretty much committed to calling a 5-bet.

 

[surfik]

I fold.. What do you think..? You should pot on flop and run it twice

 

[Hornet]

I would also ask you this. Switch seats with the villain. If he 4-bets you in that spot, do you assume he must have AAxx?

 

[kirchhausen]

Heros policy is to only run it once. If Villains know they can run it twice against you, they'll push harder in spots where there's an opportunity to make you fold, knowing if they get called they have a 2nd board to save them.

Also, this player I'm up against also only runs it once as well, so even if I go twice, he won't.

What other hands would you guys 4-bet OOP here against the best player in the room? What are your plans with those hands if 5-bet?

At least some if not most of the following:

JT98, KKQQ, KQJT, KKTT, KKAQ, KKAT,KKAJ, KKQT, QQTT, QQAK, QQAT, QQKJ, QQJT

 

[Hornet]

JT98, KKQQ, KQJT, KKTT, KKAQ, KKAT,KKAJ, KKQT, QQTT, QQAK, QQAT, QQKJ, QQJT

I would NOT 4-bet with many of these hands. I would almost never 4-bet with KK there ... that’s exactly the hand you don’t want against AA.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Double suited run downs. When you 4-bet, you are pretty much committed to calling a 5-bet.

This players hands when he raises tend to be stronger ones:

AAxx
KKxx
Suited broadway
paired broadway
higher suited rundowns
higher double pairs

Are you saying against that range I should be willing to 5-bet hands like or ?

I fold.. What do you think..? You should pot on flop and run it twice

I agree I should check-raise pot there and be willing to get it in. I do not run it twice nor does this particular villain.

I would also ask you this. Switch seats with the villain. If he 4-bets you in that spot, do you assume he must have AAxx?

Given my style of play he's just calling if I were 3-betting him there, unless he's got AAxx given how deep we are.

 

[surfik]

You may have something like 8765 with hearts any other rundown, there is a bunch of hands you may have, that's the case of knowing your opponents... I know people that would do that with air... And they considered to be good experienced players

 

[Anthony Martino]

You may have something like 8765 with hearts any other rundown, there is a bunch of hands you may have, that's the case of knowing your opponents... I know people that would do that with air... And they considered to be good experienced players

Let's see how that hand matches up, if I decide to 4-bet and get it all-in pre after he 5-bets with some of his likely holdings:

(44%)
(56%)


(45%)
(55%)

(45%)
(55%)

(34%)
(66%)


(41%)
(59%)

A hand like 8765 double suited is something I'd bring to the fight if there were two opponents going at it and both are likely to be holding broadway cards and blocking one another. But generally I'm not looking to get $1,900 in preflop with 8-high

 

[surfik]

That is premium assessment

 

[Anthony Martino]

That is premium assessment

This opponent isn't raising without stronger holdings, as I already mentioned

 

[kirchhausen]

I would NOT 4-bet with many of these hands. I would almost never 4-bet with KK there ... that’s exactly the hand you don’t want against AA.

Well if you think he is only 3-betting you with AA then sure you can just call with the KK hands I mentioned (although these particular KK hands are some of the highest ranking non-AA staring hands). But given Villains range, I think you can safely mix these particular hands into a 4 bet range.