Tourney 15k 150BB structure (1 Viewer)

[Blind Joe]

Just looking for a bit of feedback on the following blinds structure, the purpose of which is to introduce some occasional variety for my group to use in our rebuy STTs instead of the "standard" 10k 25/50 structure. I'd expect a full table with rebuys to end around L11 at the latest.

I suppose my main question is, are the increases too steep? How would you feel about playing this structure?

 

[JustinInMN]

The increases are steep. But let's revisit the basics

There are 3 ways to manipulate the length of a tournament...

1) Adjust the starting stack
2) Adjust the blind increase size
3) Adjust level times.

I dislike shortening levels to the point the button will not orbit the table. So to me 15-18 minutes is the bare minimum on that, so since you are listing your levels as 20 and dropping to 15 I don't think you can trim the tournament that way.

So going with bigger increases is better than shortenin levels. And at least you stayed out of doubles. But the effect is that stacks reduce by 60% in terms of BB for the 66% increases.

To use levels 5 and 6 as an illustration, if someone has a stack of T12,000 with a BB of 600, They have 20 BB, that number becomes just 12 BB when the BB increases to 1000.

So the criticism of this format is that players accumulate chips lose that advantage much more quickly in higher increases, because tournaments become a game of two street poker. Preflop and flop are often the only streets for action. That gets spread out over a few more levels with more gradual increases.

 

[Blind Joe]

I'm not really looking to manipulate the length of the tournament, just to have a different blind structure available to mix things up every once in a while, so I tried to come up with something that was still consistent but had steeper (though not too steep) increases. Your point about "two street poker" is not something I'd considered. Do you think this structure would be particularly vulnerable to that or could I get away with it?

 

[JustinInMN]

Your point about "two street poker" is not something I'd considered. Do you think this structure would be particularly vulnerable to that or could I get away with it?

I mean in fairness, even flatter structures will probably reach this point eventually, unless there are a lot of coolers. What the steeper increases do is make that point happen suddenly.

 

[Blind Joe]

Revisiting this thread as I recently saw the discussion about T100 base and thought it might be a good idea to try out for my T15k.

The structure I've come up with addresses the issues raised by @JustinInMN above (although the increases are still higher than the 39—40% you see in "standard" structures with 33/50% alternating increases).

The tournament needs to last no longer than 5 hours, preferably closer to 4—4½, but my group seems to have such a variation in style and speed that I plan on the tournament ending anywhere between 30—10BB, so based on a table of 9 with rebuys I've calculated my absolute final level to be 9k/18k. Working back from that I've got the following structure:

I'm still a little on the fence about abandoning the T25 but I have to admit it does look cleaner and simpler and common sense suggests that in itself might speed up the game and help the newbies. It also means not colouring up until much later, which I see as an absolute win.

Any feed back or suggestions on this would be appreciated. Strictly speaking I would prefer a more standard, shallower increase pattern but I think I can live with the extra 6% and hopefully that doesn't have too big of an impact.

I could dial the early levels back to 20 minutes if needed to accommodate more levels, I've increased them to 25 to facilitate a "settling in" period that I think will be handy while we've still got people so unfamiliar with the game, but the extra 5 minutes aren't essential.

 

[Dix]

The second plays better than the 1st if you're asking me (not that anybody does), but will likely last an extra half hour to an hour-ish depending on the number of rebuys.

Knocking the early levels down to 20 minutes will only peel 15 minutes off that.

Personally, I'd be happy to play either. But then, I'm used to crappy structures up here in my neck of the wilderness. Over half of 'em up here all have the same back-to-back doubling where they jump from a BB of 1k to 4k in two levels. A couple are even worse than that... yes, really... but then, bingo is a popular game up here too.

So, if I can look at a structure that doesn't have a double in it somewhere (other than level 2) I'm ecstatic.

I dislike shortening levels to the point the button will not orbit the table. So to me 15-18 minutes is the bare minimum on that, so since you are listing your levels as 20 and dropping to 15 I don't think you can trim the tournament that way.

Count me in this camp. If you're hand shuffling a single deck 20 minutes is minimum IMO. Exception being if you're down to 5-6 players at a final table. Which is probably close to where you'd be at when you drop to 15. (again, depending on rebuys)

 

[Blind Joe]

The second plays better than the 1st if you're asking me (not that anybody does), but will likely last an extra half hour to an hour-ish depending on the number of rebuys.

Knocking the early levels down to 20 minutes will only peel 15 minutes off that.

Personally, I'd be happy to play either. But then, I'm used to crappy structures up here in my neck of the wilderness. Over half of 'em up here all have the same back-to-back doubling where they jump from a BB of 1k to 4k in two levels. A couple are even worse than that... yes, really... but then, bingo is a popular game up here too.

So, if I can look at a structure that doesn't have a double in it somewhere (other than level 2) I'm ecstatic.



Count me in this camp. If you're hand shuffling a single deck 20 minutes is minimum IMO. Exception being if you're down to 5-6 players at a final table. Which is probably close to where you'd be at when you drop to 15. (again, depending on rebuys)

With 9 players + 3 rebuys and a finishing range of 30—10BBs the tournament should end when the BB is between 6—18k. Without the extra 15 minutes for L1—3 in the second structure I see it lasting pretty much the same time as the original structure, but I might have got that wrong.

We use two decks and by the time the level duration drops we have a few eliminations so that works out OK, it's something we've done for a while.

 

[BGinGA]

I generally prefer at least 20-minute starting levels with a full table, but have no issue with 15-minute levels in our events (8-player tables with dedicated dealers), since getting a full orbit per blind level is not really an issue. I also have no issue with shorter levels later in the event, when the smaller table size equates to a similar number of hands being played on a per-level basis.

Regarding the structure in the OP: nothing wrong with aggressive structures imo; I use several regularly that range from 50% to 67% increases (averaging 59%) and they work just fine.

In fact, there is very little difference in game play between a 59% structure using 30 minute levels, a 41% structure using 22 minute levels, or a 28% stucture that uses 15 minute levels, other than the hands-per-level issue created by the shorter 15-minute level times.

 

[Blind Joe]

@BGinGA what's your view on moving to a T100 base (either by altering the first 3 levels of the original structure or using the revamped second structure)?

Considering the T25s were only used in 3 levels it seems to make sense to me, as well as being appealing in terms of simplicity. What do you think?

 

[BGinGA]

@BGinGA what's your view on moving to a T100 base (either by altering the first 3 levels of the original structure or using the revamped second structure)?

Considering the T25s were only used in 3 levels it seems to make sense to me, as well as being appealing in terms of simplicity. What do you think?

I plan on using something similar to the following T100-base structure for this year's league. For 9 players with T15000 starting stacks (and 33% re-buys), it should last no later than L13 (or 4:20 plus breaks if using all 20-minute blind levels). All increases are 33%-50% (averaging around 41%):

lvl sb bb
L1 100 100
L2 100 200
L3 100 300
L4 200 400
L5 300 600
break
L6 400 800
L7 600 1200
L8 800 1600
L9 1100 2200
L10 1500 3000
remove T100/T500 chips
L11 2000 4000
L12 3000 6000
L13 4000 8000 ** eot
L14 6000 12000
L15 8000 16000

Dropping blind level times to 15 minutes starting at L11 will cut off roughly 10-15 minutes from the total time. Adding a BBA (starting with L1) should slice off another one or two levels, ending no later than L12.


For the OP structure approach, I tend to use the following structure with 20 minute levels, which extends the use of T25 chips to five levels. It will run about the same length as the structure above (L12-L13, around 4 hours plus breaks), but features 300BB starting stacks instead of just 150BB. All level increases after L1-L2 (33%) are between 50% and 67%, averaging around 55%.

lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
L5 125 250
remove T25 chips
L6 200 400
L7 300 600
L8 500 1000
L9 800 1600
L10 1200 2400
remove T100/T500 chips
L11 2000 4000
L12 3000 6000
L13 5000 10000 ** eot
L14 8000 16000

 

[Altheman003]

I plan on using something similar to the following T100-base structure for this year's league. For 9 players with T15000 starting stacks (and 33% re-buys), it should last no later than L13 (or 4:20 plus breaks if using all 20-minute blind levels). All increases are 33%-50% (averaging around 41%):

lvl sb bb
L1 100 100
L2 100 200
L3 100 300
L4 200 400
L5 300 600
break
L6 400 800
L7 600 1200
L8 800 1600
L9 1100 2200
L10 1500 3000
remove T100/T500 chips
L11 2000 4000
L12 3000 6000
L13 4000 8000 ** eot
L14 6000 12000
L15 8000 16000

Dropping blind level times to 15 minutes starting at L11 will cut off roughly 10-15 minutes from the total time. Adding a BBA (starting with L1) should slice off another one or two levels, ending no later than L12.


For the OP structure approach, I tend to use the following structure with 20 minute levels, which extends the use of T25 chips to five levels. It will run about the same length as the structure above (L12-L13, around 4 hours plus breaks), but features 300BB starting stacks instead of just 150BB. All level increases after L1-L2 (33%) are between 50% and 67%, averaging around 55%.

lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
L5 125 250
remove T25 chips
L6 200 400
L7 300 600
L8 500 1000
L9 800 1600
L10 1200 2400
remove T100/T500 chips
L11 2000 4000
L12 3000 6000
L13 5000 10000 ** eot
L14 8000 16000

What is the starting stack for this structure?

 

[BGinGA]

What is the starting stack for this structure?

As written above, it's 15K for 9 players (per the OP's requirements). I have a slightly different version for two tables of 30K stacks using T2000 chips.

 

[Altheman003]

As written above, it's 15K for 9 players (per the OP's requirements). I have a slightly different version for two tables of 30K stacks using T2000 chips.

Sorry, I meant each players recommended starting stack. 12/12/5/6/1?

 

[Blind Joe]

Sorry, I meant each players recommended starting stack. 12/12/5/6/1?

That seems the norm for T25 base. For T100 I would imagine 15/5/6/1 would be optimal.

 

[BGinGA]

Sorry, I meant each players recommended starting stack. 12/12/5/6/1?

T25-base -- 12/12/5/6/x (10K+)
T100-base -- 10/6/6/x (10K+ using T1000/T5000)
T100-base -- 10/10/7/x (20K+ using T2000/T10000)

 

[Jeevansluck]

I copied and pasted this structure from @BGinGA since I'd like to use it for my next home game.

lvl sb bb
L1 100 100
L2 100 200
L3 100 300
L4 200 400
L5 300 600
Break 10mins
L6 400 800
L7 600 1200
L8 800 1600
L9 1100 2200
L10 1500 3000
Break 10mins remove T100/T500 chips
L11 2000 4000
L12 3000 6000
L13 4000 8000
L14 6000 12000
L15 8000 16000
L16 10K 20K

I'm intent on trying a T100 base Tournament for 8-10 players. I'm looking for a run time of 4-4.5hrs and I don't expect more than 2 rebuys. Maybe none at all.

Is T25K starting stacks too big? Too small?

I want to get my $1Ks in play. If I start out with counts to the players like :

10/6/16/1 or 10/6/21/x

I'm not sure about this. Maybe 15/5/16/1

Any help or recommendation would be great. I'm not sure how I need to deploy my chips. Obviously, my secondary goal to having a smooth fun game, is to get the yummy $1ks and a few $5ks in play.

 

[Jeevansluck]

T25-base -- 12/12/5/6/x (10K+)
T100-base -- 10/6/6/x (10K+ using T1000/T5000)
T100-base -- 10/10/7/x (20K+ using T2000/T10000)

Is it inadvisable to try to run a T100 base with a T1K/T5K setup of chips?

I really want to run a t100 base Tournament but not sure if I've actually got the right amount of chips. I'm doing a mock up now with my chips and I'm uncertain

 

[justsomedude]

Is it inadvisable to try to run a T100 base with a T1K/T5K setup of chips?

I really want to run a t100 base Tournament but not sure if I've actually got the right amount of chips. I'm doing a mock up now with my chips and I'm uncertain

A T100 base with 1k/5k chips is fine... and very common. I think @BGinGA was just stating that he already has a setup for a similar structure with t2k chips.

 

[toynoob]

I copied and pasted this structure from @BGinGA since I'd like to use it for my next home game.

lvl sb bb
L1 100 100
L2 100 200
L3 100 300
L4 200 400
L5 300 600
Break 10mins
L6 400 800
L7 600 1200
L8 800 1600
L9 1100 2200
L10 1500 3000
Break 10mins remove T100/T500 chips
L11 2000 4000
L12 3000 6000
L13 4000 8000
L14 6000 12000
L15 8000 16000
L16 10K 20K

I'm intent on trying a T100 base Tournament for 8-10 players. I'm looking for a run time of 4-4.5hrs and I don't expect more than 2 rebuys. Maybe none at all.

Is T25K starting stacks too big? Too small?

I want to get my $1Ks in play. If I start out with counts to the players like :

10/6/16/1 or 10/6/21/x

I'm not sure about this. Maybe 15/5/16/1

Any help or recommendation would be great. I'm not sure how I need to deploy my chips. Obviously, my secondary goal to having a smooth fun game, is to get the yummy $1ks and a few $5ks in play.

How long are your levels 15min?

 

[Jeevansluck]

How long are your levels 15min?

18mins for first few levels and down to 15mins by level 11.

Although, I've gone and figured out I don't have enough chips to run a T100 base Tournament. I need MOAR chips so I'm scratching the whole idea.

 

[toynoob]

18mins for first few levels and down to 15mins by level 11.

Although, I've gone and figured out I don't have enough chips to run a T100 base Tournament. I need MOAR chips so I'm scratching the whole idea.

Can you elaborate? I'm trying one tomorrow with 8-10 of us. How many chips are you considering starting with?

 

[Jeevansluck]

Can you elaborate? I'm trying one tomorrow with 8-10 of us. How many chips are you considering starting with?

I was wanting to make starting stacks of 25K. I have 10 players to chip in including me..

So I decided for 15/7/15/1

I realized I have only 120 T1000s. I didn't like that I had to modify a couple of stacks with 2 x T5K to make it work for 10 players.

I've got what I thought was a large AS Tournament set, but not large enough.

What are you planning to do?

 

[toynoob]

I have Elite's that cover 20 players with the typical T25 base. So I'm thinking for tomorrow only half my players are coming since it's the SB it would be a good time to introduce T100 base to my degen players. I have plenty of T1000 to do what stacks you suggested. I'm looking at all these structures to find one that ends 3 to 3.5 hours. Being Sunday I'd like to get a little cash game too before it gets to late

 

[Jeevansluck]

I have Elite's that cover 20 players with the typical T25 base. So I'm thinking for tomorrow only half my players are coming since it's the SB it would be a good time to introduce T100 base to my degen players. I have plenty of T1000 to do what stacks you suggested. I'm looking at all these structures to find one that ends 3 to 3.5 hours. Being Sunday I'd like to get a little cash game too before it gets to late

I have a large CPC set that can accommodate my needs, but my goal was to get pretty chips in play that I normally can't with T25.

Sad too, because I really only need 1 more barrel of T1Ks to host an STT with T100.

The CPC stock high denoms don't have any wow factor at all, so it's pointless.

I'll run a T25 AS Tournament game. Need to buy MOAR chips but will have to save up for it. Pretty disappointed to be 1 barrel shirt. I have T5Ks and T25Ks galore.

 

[markleteenie]

I'm going to be running a 10/10/9/1 =20k. I think 15 1ks is not necessary.

 

[toynoob]

I have a large CPC set that can accommodate my needs, but my goal was to get pretty chips in play that I normally can't with T25.

Sad too, because I really only need 1 more barrel of T1Ks to host an STT with T100.

The CPC stock high denoms don't have any wow factor at all, so it's pointless.

I'll run a T25 AS Tournament game. Need to buy MOAR chips but will have to save up for it. Pretty disappointed to be 1 barrel shirt. I have T5Ks and T25Ks galore.

Depending how this goes I may sell my T25s and pick up more T1000s

 

[Jeevansluck]

I'm now wondering if T500 is a thing?

I have a rack of T25Ks. How will I ever use them?

 

[Jeevansluck]

I'm going to be running a 10/10/9/1 =20k. I think 15 1ks is not necessary.

I have to consider this Mark. Thanks for sharing

 

[toynoob]

I'm now wondering if T500 is a thing?

I have a rack of T25Ks. How will I ever use them?

I have 10 too just because... I'm guessing a T50k 20 players?

 

[Blind Joe]

I have Elite's that cover 20 players with the typical T25 base. So I'm thinking for tomorrow only half my players are coming since it's the SB it would be a good time to introduce T100 base to my degen players. I have plenty of T1000 to do what stacks you suggested. I'm looking at all these structures to find one that ends 3 to 3.5 hours. Being Sunday I'd like to get a little cash game too before it gets to late

Using the structure from my OP with a T100 base and tweaked level and break times you could run a 3—3½ hour T15K tournament for 10 players with rebuys that should typically end by level 11.