10NL ACR Zoom: Do you call this river jam in 4bet pot?

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
10NL 6-max fast fold on ACR. Only 23 hands in DB on V so no reads.

Hero RFI AKo on BN for $0.28 (standard).
Folds to V in BB who 3! to $0.68 (a bit small I think for an OOP 3!).
Hero 4! to $2.59. V calls.

1619709457215.png


A-high ragged flop. Hero doesnt like the J, but thinking unlikely that V called with AJo so I think we are ahead of everything but 1 combo AA, 1 combo AJs, 3 combos JJ. I think V is jamming AA pre so lets drop that from his range. I dont think we're getting better hands to fold but worse hands can call here (KK, QQ, TT probably call a small bet at least once) so let's build the pot a little. Our hand is decidedly medium strength so when X to we bet about 1/4 pot.
V calls.

1619709485070.png


Turn puts the Jc on the board. This removes that last combo of AJs from V's range.
I think we are ahead of everything but 1 combo of JJ.
So we beat KK (3), QQ (6), TT (6) and AQs (2), total of 17 combos I think.
We chop with AK. Turn goes X/X.

1619709790019.png


River completes the BD club draw. V jams.
I dont think there is any chance he has AJo given the 4! call pre.
We lose to JJ, AcKc and AcQc (3 combos) but beat or chop with everything else I can think of, maybe 15 combos.
OOP player has incentive to jam all the losing/chopping combos and my range is condensed here / my hand is medium strength which IMHO increases his incentive to jam these hands.
Edit: I would add that it is only a PSB given what I have behind. If I had >$20 behind I might think differently about this situation.
Hero?

1619709995866.png
 
Last edited:

davislane

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2020
Messages
3,566
Reaction score
3,860
Location
Sydney, Australia
Personally I think you are wasting your time learning Holdem. If you want to put in the work I would be learning PLO. NLH is effectively a solved game these days. If you want to still study focus on tournaments but trying to grind cash games at those stakes is insane.
 

TheDogg

Sitting Out
Joined
Apr 15, 2021
Messages
42
Reaction score
10
Location
98004
I think there's a wider range of 3 bet opens that will call a 4 bet, especially online and especially with no reads, I think AJ is in the range. An underrated possibility of 9c10c, 8c9c, 10c 8c, that decides to call 4 bet and then can call a small bet with a backdoor and a gutshot. Also sticky QJs, KJ can definitely be in that range.

That being said, I think we call here, because we beat everything lower than an Ace, and lower Ax that thinks we're blocked, and this person could be trying to run a bluff when the flush comes in.
 

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
Hero did make the call based on the analysis above and the math held.
If I start really widening a 4! calling range by adding lots of suited connectors, AJo, QJs, KJs then this call is not good.

1619722409236.png
 

Eriks

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
3,007
Reaction score
5,342
Location
Sweden
I like how you played this one. We've got TPTK in a 4-bet pot with a potsized bet left on the turn. I'm not looking for excuses to fold under those circumstances. I don't mind shoving the turn myself as a river club/Q/T might kill some action (clearly it didn't though :)), but as played I'd call river as well.
 

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
Personally I think you are wasting your time learning Holdem. If you want to put in the work I would be learning PLO. NLH is effectively a solved game these days. If you want to still study focus on tournaments but trying to grind cash games at those stakes is insane.

@davislane I really appreciate your feedback. I thought a lot about it and I think what I really need to get right now out of poker is to manage my headspace, play solid all the time and be disciplined.

I know how to play poker, have studied a ton, know some of the theory and the math but occasionally drift into the "raise into me, huh? how about a punch in the face" and I jam mode. You know that feeling you get when some A-hole cuts you off on the freeway and your blood boils? Yeah that's me when someone X/R me. When someone plays aggressively into me I often try to hit back hard or harder which frankly is a bad idea 95% of the time at these stakes (and maybe at all stakes, not sure yet).

I usually play 23/18 VPIP but dream of being the Dwan/Robl action player but its not appropriate to do that sitting with 100 BB. I played 294 hands this evening and worked on being focused, and keeping my cool. I channeled @Eriks :) OOP I played GTO which means check/calling a lot when I dont have nuts or bottom of range bluff candidate which frankly feels too passive but honestly works. I had a very, very solid session. Two deep breaths when I felt the boil begin and no mouse clicks until I stop and think. Only made one bad PSB bluff OOP OTR and was snapped off. No stupid jams. I used to have an index card on my desk saying "NO STUPID JAMS" but I think I threw it away as evidenced by my recent hand history posts LOL

Otherwise in this session I bluffed a bit and bluff caught a bit and played solid hands and I ended up $21 which isnt bad. I also discovered that bluff catching can be almost as exciting a bluff jamming! So may be able to partially satisfy my craving.

I have been watching a lot of super high roller cash games from 2015 on PokerGO and was thinking that honestly, I just dont have the natural steady mental temperament to play like those guys. I'm a mess and I need work. So for now this is a journey about continuing to focus on discipline and cutting out the exciting, irrational moments of spew. When I can consistently see my graph over tens of thousands of hands go steadily up to the right I will have really learned something. Right now my graph whipsaws up and down owning to the volatility of my play style. In March I was up $79 on 7,032 hands; so far in April I'm down $133 on 6,015 hands. So far this year I am down $88 over 32,820 hands. Not a bad price to pay for entertainment but not a sign of a solid, consistent poker player either. I need to get it together; maybe then I can learn PLO ...

1619824110761.png
 
Last edited:

Senzrock

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
1,843
Reaction score
3,435
Location
New York City
Trying hard not to be results oriented here. Interesting hand, and I know I'm coming in with late feedback, but I don't love the small 1/4 bet on the flop. Did you run that by the solver? Just feels like villain should have a LOT of aces here, including all AQ, some AJ, some ATs and potentially even some suited Ace wheels A4s/A5s. I think we need to bet more on the flop to build the pot, specifically against those AQ hands.

It feels to me that the unstated mindset of hero here is that they are a little too concerned about running into the nuts (lot of discussion of AA/JJ, given very few combos of those exact hands). I would actually examine this underlying thought pattern if I were you. Is that something you find yourself struggling with more broadly? This "monsters under the bed" framework can be incredibly difficult to shake if not confronted effectively I've found. When you state "Our hand is decidedly medium strength" when holding AK on a AJ7 board, I think this is mistake in thinking about our hand. I would argue that AK should be put in the "strong hand" category. This is not about just labeling something, it's much more about our unconscious thought patterns. You are playing 10NL here, microstakes, but you have to imagine (as it seems like you do thoughtfully), playing these hands at much larger stakes, so we need strong logic regarding board textures. If you think AK is only a medium strength hand on this flop, it sounds like you are only putting 2 pair/sets+ in the strong category, which is too narrow imo. If our mind is downplaying the strength of our hand on certain flop textures, it skews the ways we play the hand moving forward, costing us a lot of $$$ over the long run.

If we can agree to move this from medium to strong in our minds, I think a lot of other actions may follow. First, we could/shoud be betting at least 50% on this flop, maybe even up to 75% (I was just commenting on the previous hand on here that you posted where you c-bet 75% with what I would call a more medium strength hand (55 on the 642 board I think it was), so if you are betting 75% there, I think an argument could be made to bet up to that much here (I would lean more towards the 50-60% myself). You may say, well what's the difference between 1/4 and 1/2 bet on the pot, but as we see if matters a great deal in terms of stack sizes moving forward. This is why bet sizing is so crucial in NLHE. As played, we need to understand that betting 1/4 and following that up with a check on the turn makes our hand look *extremely weak* - which then allows us to snap the river, even if we don't love the clubs coming off. I think though, much more often, we are up against a smaller A and we need to start building that pot!

Thanks for the hands, I always enjoy them.
 

moechar

Straight
Supporting Member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
789
Reaction score
1,259
Location
New York City
I know @moechar always bets 50% pot here ;)
Not sure if I'm being dissed or complimented here as I didn't read everything LOL, but I am def betting 50% pot maybe more on the flop, knowing myself. Make them pay!!!! Lots of weaker suited aces here that you want to extract value from that won't go anywhere if they have at least 1 of their suits on the board. Well tbh even if they were unsuited I doubt they'd fold on this flop with a weaker ace, but they should have folded with weak unsuited aces to your 4bet preflop.
 

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
I havent put this in the solver - but will do. I think my concern on the flop is that V called a 4 bet. In my limited experience that is a pretty tight range of TT+ and AK. I would agree that my cbet was a bit small; I probably should have bet 1/3 to 1/2 pot.

So interestingly enough it looks like the solver prefers Hero's 25% sizing on this flop. Note that I did exclude AA from V's 4bet calling range as I think it is very likely that V would 5 bet/jam with AA. I am surprised to see that the solver is checking 53% here.

1621543165349.png
 

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
Interesting to note that the solver folds V's hand 91% of the time even to this 1/4 pot bet.

1621543424785.png


Turn does go X/X a reasonable amount of the time so this street is consistent with how the solver plays our hand.

1621543369603.png
 

Senzrock

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
1,843
Reaction score
3,435
Location
New York City
Folding QQ on that flop 91% of the time?? That’s insane! I’m sure I’m out of touch re: solvers but this just seems too tight. Now... I think it has to be related to the narrow range you adding villain right? But like you said, you don’t have a read on him. Especially at lower stakes, people show up with much wider ranges in my experience. I think in our minds it might only be TT+ when in fact there are much more hands that villain can have. Remember solvers are only accurate to the extent that we attribute appropriate ranges.
 

TheDogg

Sitting Out
Joined
Apr 15, 2021
Messages
42
Reaction score
10
Location
98004
That's super interesting. I feel like GTO solvers give your opponents a lot more credit than they should be given at most levels of the game though.
 

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
Folding QQ on that flop 91% of the time?? That’s insane! I’m sure I’m out of touch re: solvers but this just seems too tight. Now... I think it has to be related to the narrow range you adding villain right? But like you said, you don’t have a read on him. Especially at lower stakes, people show up with much wider ranges in my experience. I think in our minds it might only be TT+ when in fact there are much more hands that villain can have. Remember solvers are only accurate to the extent that we attribute appropriate ranges.
absolutely. if you have thoughts on a wider range for V feel free to pop it in the thread. This sim is small so I could rerun it in 3 minutes.
 

Senzrock

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
1,843
Reaction score
3,435
Location
New York City
absolutely. if you have thoughts on a wider range for V feel free to pop it in the thread. This sim is small so I could rerun it in 3 minutes.
I mentioned a few in my comments earlier but even including all AQ, some AJ, some ATs and potentially even some suited Ace wheels A4s/A5s. Pairs down to 77 as well. A few TJs and T9s
 

Legend5555

Flush
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
2,338
Reaction score
3,030
Location
Georgia
Personally I think you are wasting your time learning Holdem. If you want to put in the work I would be learning PLO. NLH is effectively a solved game these days. If you want to still study focus on tournaments but trying to grind cash games at those stakes is insane.
Just not true. You have to put in more work than you used to. But there is still plenty of money to be made through 200nl. And live poker is very soft.

I'm not saying that PLO isn't a good game to learn, but NLH is far from dead at live stakes $5/$10 and below, and 100nl and below online.
 

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
I mentioned a few in my comments earlier but even including all AQ, some AJ, some ATs and potentially even some suited Ace wheels A4s/A5s. Pairs down to 77 as well. A few TJs and T9s
something like this calling a 4bet OOP?
AJs, ATs, A5s, A4s, JTs, and T9s are all at 50% freq

1621554380487.png
 

TheDogg

Sitting Out
Joined
Apr 15, 2021
Messages
42
Reaction score
10
Location
98004
Feel like A5s and A4s are explicitly 3-bet bluffs, would be weird to call with them. Why are there no calls with KQs/QJs vs. JTs and T9s? Is it because they block your opponent from having Kings/Queens/Jacks? This seems like a bit of a polarized range, but I'm not sure why you would call with a polarized range.
 

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
Feel like A5s and A4s are explicitly 3-bet bluffs, would be weird to call with them. Why are there no calls with KQs/QJs vs. JTs and T9s? Is it because they block your opponent from having Kings/Queens/Jacks? This seems like a bit of a polarized range, but I'm not sure why you would call with a polarized range.
agreed - I'm just trying to build a 4bet calling range based on @Senzrock's email. I dont honestly think A4/A5 is calling a 4bet or they are welcome to play in my home game any time!!
 

Stufflymcstuff

Two Pair
Joined
Feb 26, 2021
Messages
362
Reaction score
221
Location
Toronto
if you gave the solver more options for bet sizes it would probably go lower than 1/4 of the pot.

Just not true. You have to put in more work than you used to. But there is still plenty of money to be made through 200nl. And live poker is very soft.

I'm not saying that PLO isn't a good game to learn, but NLH is far from dead at live stakes $5/$10 and below, and 100nl and below online.

it depends a lot on what servers you have access to. if you're playing on segregated servers in the states it's quite a bit better than international servers.
 

TheDogg

Sitting Out
Joined
Apr 15, 2021
Messages
42
Reaction score
10
Location
98004
For the Queens folding though, what do you guys think? Is it because the implied odds vs. an Ace are horrific?
 

boltonguy

Flush
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Boston, MA USA
I put this flop in Flopzilla to look at QQ here. Against Hero's 4betting range QQ only has 25.4% equity.
However with this small bet size of 1/4 pot Hero is laying odds of 4.87:1 which would require 17% or more equity to call which V clearly has.
I'm not sure why QQ folds 91% to this small bet. Certainly if V misses she may face additional bets on turn and river which dilute these odds as they only consider odds laid on the current street not future bets. Maybe the likelihood of future bets make this a fold?

Thinking about SPR: Maybe Heros' stack depth makes a turn jam likely and V only has 6% chance to hit a Q on the turn and so would be likely to fold to a turn jam making a flop call a losing call 94% of the time.

1621604295630.png


1621604424866.png
 

Senzrock

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
1,843
Reaction score
3,435
Location
New York City
agreed - I'm just trying to build a 4bet calling range based on @Senzrock's email. I dont honestly think A4/A5 is calling a 4bet or they are welcome to play in my home game any time!!
I hear you, I really do but... and this is coming from 10+ years of online & live (low stakes) experience: I am still SHOCKED (not sure why), the types of hands that show up in any given hand at showdown. I have had to work HARD to unlearn the wiring in my brain that tells me that my opponents are using the kinds of hand ranges that I am using (or that are even close to "correct"). I'm just telling you, that you will not be as profitable as you could be, if you continue to assign top of range to your opponents in these spots.
 
Top Bottom