$1/2 PLO cash (1 Viewer)

[Rhodeman77]

Playing the first must move PLO table at the casino last night.

I’m in the game for $1300 sitting on a stack of about $1600. I just doubled up when I turned broad way with a flush draw vs a set of Aces and held up.

V1 on the button and $10 straddle Younger agro type short buying and getting his stack in with just about anything hoping to to take down a big multi-way pot. $425 or so stack

V2 older guy BB, casino reg. Is the guy that I doubled though on the previous hand. Sticky for sure!!! He had called a pot size bet earlier in the night when I flopped 3 pair and he turned a set of 3’s that ended up winning a big pot. I have no clue what he was doing calling in that hand. $550 or so stack.

Hero is dealt in the cut off position.

Most of the table calls the $10 straddle
(8 players) including me, the SB folded. Button checks his option.

Flop is very interesting, .
BB bets $50 and it folds to me. I call the $50. The button raises pot and the BB re-raises pot!!!

It’s back to me having to call just over $500 total, about $460 more with the button still to act with a very short stack left that we all know he isn’t folding.

On the surface this looks like a snap fold, but is it really?

I only have a gut shot to the nut straight right now, but any card 8 or higher gives me a wrap (other than a 10 or A). And an Ace gives me a double gutter at least. I also have 2 possible back door draws and I known will get to see both cards no matter what.

So do I call off and gamble for $460 to win a little over $1k?

 

[mike32]

I know I would fold. When I get too optimistic in Omaha bad things seem to happen.

 

[detroitdad]

I know I would fold. When I get too optimistic in Omaha bad things seem to happen.

I would also fold. I like the call pre flop.

 

[DrStrange]

I am wondering why hero didn't raise preflop. That is a really nice hand . . .

Snap fold. Sure, Hero has a lot of runner runner outs. Maybe enough to get 25% equity (???) But I don't see much of a way to get a third of the equity which is what Hero needs to make the call. Worse, there is a marginally significant side pot where hero needs a pure 50% equity that he is not even close to getting.

What can we put in villain's hands? A set for sure. A big wrap. Maybe a pair of aces? (dubious, I think).

The set doesn't matter much, all it does is erase Hero's runner-runner two pair draws. Hero has to make a straight or flush to win - no straight leads to a full house at the same time and most of the runner - runner flushes are safe as well.

A big wrap consumes a chunk of Hero's runner-runner outs AND often duplicates his 98 gut-shot draw. Not quite a dagger in the heart, but certainly a sizable loss of equity.

I wonder why Hero didn't pot this himself when the possibility presented itself? Not good enough to raise but good enough to call all-in? (note that I vote fold is best - not advocating a raise on the flop, just asking Hero's perspective.)

While I admire Hero's creative view on the hand, the math is not in his favor. No implied odds. No fold equity. Hero's best hopes are 1) the villains are total idiots with even worse hands or 2) the poker gods will be generous to adventure seeking Heroes.

DrStrange

 

[detroitdad]

I am wondering why hero didn't raise preflop. That is a really nice hand . . .

Snap fold. Sure, Hero has a lot of runner runner outs. Maybe enough to get 25% equity (???) But I don't see much of a way to get a third of the equity which is what Hero needs to make the call. Worse, there is a marginally significant side pot where hero needs a pure 50% equity that he is not even close to getting.

What can we put in villain's hands? A set for sure. A big wrap. Maybe a pair of aces? (dubious, I think).

The set doesn't matter much, all it does is erase Hero's runner-runner two pair draws. Hero has to make a straight or flush to win - no straight leads to a full house at the same time and most of the runner - runner flushes are safe as well.

A big wrap consumes a chunk of Hero's runner-runner outs AND often duplicates his 98 gut-shot draw. Not quite a dagger in the heart, but certainly a sizable loss of equity.

I wonder why Hero didn't pot this himself when the possibility presented itself? Not good enough to raise but good enough to call all-in? (note that I vote fold is best - not advocating a raise on the flop, just asking Hero's perspective.)

While I admire Hero's creative view on the hand, the math is not in his favor. No implied odds. No fold equity. Hero's best hopes are 1) the villains are total idiots with even worse hands or 2) the poker gods will be generous to adventure seeking Heroes.

DrStrange

Kind of what I said

 

[WedgeRock]

the villains are total idiots with even worse hands

This is always a consideration....

 

[detroitdad]

This is always a consideration....

You missed an interesting cash table mix last night.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I am wondering why hero didn't raise preflop. That is a really nice hand . . .

Snap fold. Sure, Hero has a lot of runner runner outs. Maybe enough to get 25% equity (???) But I don't see much of a way to get a third of the equity which is what Hero needs to make the call. Worse, there is a marginally significant side pot where hero needs a pure 50% equity that he is not even close to getting.

What can we put in villain's hands? A set for sure. A big wrap. Maybe a pair of aces? (dubious, I think).

The set doesn't matter much, all it does is erase Hero's runner-runner two pair draws. Hero has to make a straight or flush to win - no straight leads to a full house at the same time and most of the runner - runner flushes are safe as well.

A big wrap consumes a chunk of Hero's runner-runner outs AND often duplicates his 98 gut-shot draw. Not quite a dagger in the heart, but certainly a sizable loss of equity.

I wonder why Hero didn't pot this himself when the possibility presented itself? Not good enough to raise but good enough to call all-in? (note that I vote fold is best - not advocating a raise on the flop, just asking Hero's perspective.)

While I admire Hero's creative view on the hand, the math is not in his favor. No implied odds. No fold equity. Hero's best hopes are 1) the villains are total idiots with even worse hands or 2) the poker gods will be generous to adventure seeking Heroes.

DrStrange

The gap in the middle really hurts the hand strength pre flop IMO. If the hand had been QJ108 DS I would raiesed. Also I prefer to play small ball and see cheap flop and less than all in turns if I can when I’m still drawing.

Add in the fact that these guys don’t fold often I can usually wait to make my hand before I have to pile in my chips.

 

[Payback]

In the CO, please raise that hand PF.

Flop I call the $50 due to backdoor equity, but don't particularly love calling the extra 400 off.

 

[Kain8]

Calling $50 on the flop with a good amount of favourable turns is easily worth it. The extra $400? If you feel like gambling, then go for it, but a fold is prudent and probably best.

 

[Rhodeman77]

How much equity do we think we have on the flop? On a good turn card?

Assume someone has a set.

 

[WedgeRock]

You missed an interesting cash table mix last night.

Yeah? Who played?

And believe me, I would have much rather have been there...

 

[detroitdad]

Yeah? Who played?

And believe me, I would have much rather have been there...

6 handed. In order to my left. Don, Tarlo, John M, Jim O, and @mike32 @Sprouty joined us at one point. We were playing HOPE. Don was well.........Don. Same with John. They do not believe in folding.

Were playing PLO8. I'm in the BB. I'm dealt A/K/2/4 two suited. It limps to me. I make it three bucks. I get 5 callers. I flop the wheel with a flush draw. I bet 13 and get three callers. Turn is garbage. I fire off 40 bucks. Tarlo calls with less, everyone else folds. I scoop it.

Played a giant hand in PLO with Don. He treated unsuited aces like he would play them in Holdem. I think it was a 150ish pot for me with my flopped Jacks and Sevens. I also had Pocket Kings and the second flush draw.

I was betting a lot pre flop in the PLO rounds to sighs from Don, Tarlo, and John. Can't build up a big flop bet at .50 cent blinds.

Oh, but I did finish 19th in the tourney lol.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero is 31 - 69 vs TT22 rainbow. Same vs any other set, bottom / middle the same as top.

Hero is 75-25 if he hits his gut shot on the turn
Hero is 30-70 on the ac for the turn, 50-50 on the 9c turned. (I must be blind, I can't see why that made such a difference - it looks like just a two out swing.)
Not that it matters so much - all the money is in the pot on the flop. Turn equity is relevant to making the $50 flop call - not the all-in call.

Note that hero's situation is not hopeless, just solidly -EV -=- DrStrange

 

[WedgeRock]

What can we put in villain's hands?

Set of 10's maybe with a backdoor nut flush draw in one hand and a wrap around the 56 in the other hand maybe also with a nut flush backdoor draw.

We're up $300 and a call/whiff evaporates all of that. I suppose if we were way up a gambool might be in order, but I think this is a fold in this spot. If we were sure of a button fold, maybe we could justify a call to get heads up... So re-re-pot to isolate?

 

[celticnoel]

I've never really gotten into plo but think I might give it another go

 

[Jimulacrum]

Easy fold. Not worth matching your opponents' stacks just to run out a couple of backdoor draws. Having a lot of turn cards that give you a decent draw, plus a few outs to the nuts, is not a good hand in PLO.

Based on its own merits, it's not that great, and it's even worse when you consider that both of your backdoor flushes are non-nut, and all of your other equity relies on straight draws that are easily duplicated or dominated by superior draws.

 

[DoubleEagle]

So do I call off and gamble for $460 to win a little over $1k?

No.

 

[detroitdad]

I've never really gotten into plo but think I might give it another go

it's a fantastic game. Especially hi/lo

 

[Rhodeman77]

So here are the results. I think there is a good chance that someone has 78xx in there hand eliminating one of my clean outs and another wrap card. I make the fold.

Button calls.
Here are the hands. I was in very good shape against their holdings with 36% equity on the flop. But it could have been a lot worse if someone did have 7-8.

Turn was one of the many very good cards and the river brought a Q that would have completed my straight.

Button went on to rebuy at least 6 more times for the table minimum of $200.

I knew I had a decent amount of equity but it was a lot more than I realized.

Also one of the reasons I didn’t raise preflop was I was expecting the Button to raise it as he had been much of the night. Even if I did raise and he didn’t 3 bet I still would have gotten called in at least 5 spots. Nobody in this game likes to fold preflop. Unless I can get in a 4 bet preflop I try to play small ball as much as possible.

Button had the 6543, BB had the A366

 

[Rhodeman77]

Also what’s interesting is that the Buttons hand has no negative effect on my hand and actually knowing his cards improves my equity by 4% since all of those are cards we don’t want to come on the turn and river thus increasing the chance of a good card coming.

 

[Kain8]

A66d3d is being played? No wonder you make like a bandit wherever you play PLO when you find players like that!

 

[Rhodeman77]

A66d3d is being played? No wonder you make like a bandit wherever you play PLO when you find players like that!

He is a pretty typical PLO player for the casino. They don’t fold preflop for the most part which means having to make the best hand post flop multi way.

For example I had KKJJ double suited, I’m on a $700 stack and make it $75 after a bunch of limps. EVERY SINGLE LIMPER CALLED!!!

 

[DoubleEagle]

Yours was the only hand in the bunch I would seen a flop with.