1/2/5 PLO Hand Straddled to $40 (1 Viewer)

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
Alright, going to share this hand. I think it's a fairly standard spot and play, but would love the good @DrStrange 's take and others as well

Hero is playing 1/2 PLO with a mandatory $5 button straddle and unlimited restraddles. There has been a restraddle to $10, $20 and $40 this hand. Players are jabbering at Hero on the button to restraddle to $80 (knowing I'm fairly nitty and don't straddle very often). Hero waves them off, and has a stack of $1900 (buyins are 200-1K in this game, so Hero is winning as usual)

Hero covers everyone at the table except a middle-aged Asian man who came from the must-move and is sitting on a stack of close to 3K. Hero has no prior history with this player.

The straddle to $40 is in MP. Villain is just before the Hijack and raises to $185. Folds to Hero on the button who looks down at :ad::as::td::9h: Hero repots to $635. Folds to Villain who thinks for awhile and then calls.

POT: $1,345
Heros Remaining Stack: $1,265

Flop: :th::6c::5d:

Villain leads into Hero for $650. Hero gets it all-in.

Turn: :5s:
River: :6h:

Hero reveals his Aces-up and Villain shows :qd::js::ts::tc:

I feel like this spot is fairly standard for me to get it in. The SPR on the flop is essentially 1:1. barring a VERY coordinated flop that completely whiffs my hand, my chips are going in. Given that I have a ten in my hand (i.e. a blocker to top set, requiring villain to have the last two tens in the deck) and I have a 9 in my hand (a blocker to some of the rundown hands that would like this flop like 6789) and given the monotone nature of the board, I just don't see getting away from this spot.

I have the backdoor flush draw and straight draw as well. I can't really fear two pair here either, but in the event villain got crazy sticky with a hand like 3456 or 5678 double suited preflop I still have equity. That actually would've been preferable because then I at least have 25-30% equity. He flopped me really bad here where I had only 14% equity when I was 70% preflop.

But anyway, still feel given flop texture and my hand I have to go with it here. How do others feel?
 

Frogzilla

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,279
Reaction score
4,806
Location
Frisco, TX
Why raise flop there instead of call? Wouldn’t you want to let the bottom of his range barrel into you on the turn?

Edit: I should probably clarify I have no idea how to play PLO so please don’t interpret my advice that sounds good (and is good in NLHE) as informed
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
Why raise flop there instead of call? Wouldn’t you want to let the bottom of his range barrel into you on the turn?

Edit: I should probably clarify I have no idea how to play PLO so please don’t interpret my advice that sounds good (and is good in NLHE) as informed

If I just call there is $2,645 in the pot and I have $615 left on the turn. The money is going in on the flop or turn either way, I never expect villain to fold to my flop shove here
 

Rhodeman77

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
7,472
Reaction score
17,303
Location
Cleveland
Once you pot it preflop you are never getting away from this hand.

the question becomes are you rolled and okay with playing $4k pots essentially all-in preflop?

You spent a lot of time and energy to build up that stack to have it gone in one hand.

Also, if you are know as a Nitty player making that raise preflop really defines you hand and makes it much easier for Villain to stack off with any flopped 2 pair or even just 1 pair if they don’t have an Ace and have what they figure as 3 live cards to improve.

You play so much small ball/pot control most of the time to build a stack to now go for a home run shot.

As a nit unless I can get over 1/2 my stack in preflop I’d rather flat and have my hand disguised. Your 3 bet only got you 1/3 in.
 

Legend5555

Full House
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
2,852
Reaction score
3,801
Location
Georgia
Why raise flop there instead of call? Wouldn’t you want to let the bottom of his range barrel into you on the turn?

Edit: I should probably clarify I have no idea how to play PLO so please don’t interpret my advice that sounds good (and is good in NLHE) as informed
@Frogzilla No one is folding the flop in PLO with these stack sizes and pot size if they were willing to bet at it.

@Anthony Martino , nothing to do here except get it in. Great flop for AAxx, some backdoor backup, less than 1 spr. That's PLO sometimes.
 

Legend5555

Full House
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
2,852
Reaction score
3,801
Location
Georgia
Once you pot it preflop you are never getting away from this hand.

the question becomes are you rolled and okay with playing $4k pots essentially all-in preflop?

You spent a lot of time and energy to build up that stack to have it gone in one hand.

Also, if you are know as a Nitty player making that raise preflop really defines you hand and makes it much easier for Villain to stack off with any flopped 2 pair or even just 1 pair if they don’t have an Ace and have what they figure as 3 live cards to improve.

You play so much small ball/pot control most of the time to build a stack to now go for a home run shot.

As a nit unless I can get over 1/2 my stack in preflop I’d rather flat and have my hand disguised. Your 3 bet only got you 1/3 in.
I'm not a PLO guy, but I've heard that it's like 35-40% in pre with AAxx makes most flops automatic "get it in." True by the math I'm assuming?
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
Once you pot it preflop you are never getting away from this hand.

the question becomes are you rolled and okay with playing $4k pots essentially all-in preflop?

You spent a lot of time and energy to build up that stack to have it gone in one hand.

Also, if you are know as a Nitty player making that raise preflop really defines you hand and makes it much easier for Villain to stack off with any flopped 2 pair or even just 1 pair if they don’t have an Ace and have what they figure as 3 live cards to improve.

You play so much small ball/pot control most of the time to build a stack to now go for a home run shot.

As a nit unless I can get over 1/2 my stack in preflop I’d rather flat and have my hand disguised. Your 3 bet only got you 1/3 in.

I do small ball and pot control in most instances. In this one I was like 70/30 preflop and created an SPR of 1:1

I'm fine with doing that because my opponent is making a massive equity mistake calling here OOP.

I'm ok with how I played it. I don't like the result obviously, but sometimes the fish need to eat too
 

Rhodeman77

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
7,472
Reaction score
17,303
Location
Cleveland
You were very lucky to have that much equity preflop because you had one of his 10’s. We know that most of the time if he has a 4 card run down with 2 live suites or something similar you are much closer to 55/45 and he can stack off or fold with more information. If the flop had come Ace rag rag or 22K he can get away from it only losing the $600. But you are having to call off on every flop pretty much because his range is much more undefined.

If you are known as a much more action player with wider ranges then the 3 bet is more disguised as to your hand strength.
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
You were very lucky to have that much equity preflop because you had one of his 10’s. We know that most of the time if he has a 4 card run down with 2 live suites or something similar you are much closer to 55/45 and he can stack off or fold with more information. If the flop had come Ace rag rag or 22K he can get away from it only losing the $600. But you are having to call off on every flop pretty much because his range is much more undefined.

If you are known as a much more action player with wider ranges then the 3 bet is more disguised as to your hand strength.

I have no history with this player, we were both new to one another
 

DrStrange

Full House
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
4,959
Reaction score
9,275
Location
Outlet Mall in San Marcos
As the entire hand is revealed in the original post, I think we aren't going to get as much contrary commentary. That is too bad, we can always learn more by seeing a wider range of opinions.

Hero has a top drawer hand. Preflop his hand is a significant favorite vs the villains' ranges. This is a trivial hand to play with shallow stacks. Pot preflop, get the rest in on almost any flop. The question to me is whether the stacks have become "short" due to the straddles and preflop action.

In rough terms, the deal Hero can offer villain is this. Hero will bet $600 preflop against any and all players AND promises to put another $1,200 in the pot post flop. The villain(s) can decide to call or fold once they see the flop. Let's spit ball that Hero is a 70/30 favorite preflop. Post flop . . . . . well who can say? Mostly Hero should be facing significant draws. This is a disaster hand where Hero is a massive dog vs top set.

Please note hero has no room to maneuver. The flop is nearly a mandatory all-in on any three cards. Hero's actions preflop locked him into pot commitment and might have turned "pocket aces" face up.

Some part of the time, Hero gets to claim $250 of dead money preflop uncontested. Other times, Hero gets to claim $700 on the flop where villain misses the flop. And occasionally Hero is playing for stacks - risking $1,900 to win $3,900. When playing for stacks, hero is normally a dog.

The math to figure out the EV is complicated and greatly affected by villain reads / ranging. My gut reaction is Hero is +EV on this sort of hand, but that it is close. If Hero was playing a $1,500 stack, it would be a lot easier to think this was +EV. IF Hero was playing $4,000 effective, he wouldn't be pot committed and wouldn't be "short stacked". As played, it is close but I'd guess profitable.

Too bad we didn't get to have a robust discussion about the hand. Hero is in a tough spot preflop and has to pick between greatly different lines. On the flop, Hero could hardly has asked for a better looking flop and has an easy decision. As it turns out, a wrong one, but it looks pretty safe at the time.

DrStrange
 

upNdown

Royal Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
12,508
Reaction score
15,925
Location
boston
Hero's actions preflop locked him into pot commitment and might have turned "pocket aces" face up.
I think of all possible actions, that would have been my choice - pot pre and table your hand. As has been pointed out, the fact that you were 70% preflop is kind of a freak - usually you're a lot closer to 55% there. So, assuming you're like 55% and knowing that if he calls your pot bet, it's going all in on the flop - why not try to scare him away with your aces pre, in this situation, where you're effectively short because of the straddlocity?
I'm serious here. Why not?
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
I think of all possible actions, that would have been my choice - pot pre and table your hand. As has been pointed out, the fact that you were 70% preflop is kind of a freak - usually you're a lot closer to 55% there. So, assuming you're like 55% and knowing that if he calls your pot bet, it's going all in on the flop - why not try to scare him away with your aces pre, in this situation, where you're effectively short because of the straddlocity?
I'm serious here. Why not?

Because I profit in the long-run by my opponents making mistakes. I'm not afraid to play big pots. I've lost to a one outer when I was 97.5% equity, let em put their money in bad, OOP no less
 

upNdown

Royal Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
12,508
Reaction score
15,925
Location
boston
Because I profit in the long-run by my opponents making mistakes. I'm not afraid to play big pots. I've lost to a one outer when I was 97.5% equity, let em put their money in bad, OOP no less
I understand that. But the pot was about $200 when you potted? With a mandatory $5 straddle, I’ll call the big blind $5. If, in this situation, you can just take 40 big blinds with no risk, is that maybe a better long term decision, than jamming in 400 big blinds when you’re 55%?
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
I understand that. But the pot was about $200 when you potted? With a mandatory $5 straddle, I’ll call the big blind $5. If, in this situation, you can just take 40 big blinds with no risk, is that maybe a better long term decision, than jamming in 400 big blinds when you’re 55%?

Uh, no. The button mandatory straddles to $5. Other players then took the option to restraddle to 10, 20 AND 40.

Villain then raised to $185 when it got to him. My hand is a favorite over the field, this for me is a slam-dunk repot situation.
 

upNdown

Royal Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
12,508
Reaction score
15,925
Location
boston
Uh, no. The button mandatory straddles to $5. Other players then took the option to restraddle to 10, 20 AND 40.

Villain then raised to $185 when it got to him. My hand is a favorite over the field, this for me is a slam-dunk repot situation.
I know they retestraddled this particular hand. Does that happen every hand?
i’m just calling $5 the big blind as a sort of a baseline for figuring out the value of the chips you might have taken, free, vs the stakes that you’re playing..
Because I think it might be worth weighing that ($200 or 40bb or whatever) against the reward/risk of just putting all your chips in the middle, when you have aces, regardless of the flop, turn, or River.
There’s got to be some amount of free money that’s worth more than putting all your chips in, and hoping to hold, doesn’t there?
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
I know they retestraddled this particular hand. Does that happen every hand?
i’m just calling $5 the big blind as a sort of a baseline for figuring out the value of the chips you might have taken, free, vs the stakes that you’re playing..
Because I think it might be worth weighing that ($200 or 40bb or whatever) against the reward/risk of just putting all your chips in the middle, when you have aces, regardless of the flop, turn, or River.
There’s got to be some amount of free money that’s worth more than putting all your chips in, and hoping to hold, doesn’t there?

I can't just call $5 here, it's been raised to $185. I can either fold, call or raise

Also, no, they don't straddle like this all the time, but it does happen. This field is full of crazy gamblers and I make more per hour here than any other game because of it
 

upNdown

Royal Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
12,508
Reaction score
15,925
Location
boston
I can't just call $5 here, it's been raised to $185. I can either fold, call or raise

Also, no, they don't straddle like this all the time, but it does happen. This field is full of crazy gamblers and I make more per hour here than any other game because of it
One more try
Because there’s so much in the pot, and because if he calls you, you know you’re getting it all in regardless of the flop:

I’m asking if you might be better off potting, like you did, then tabling your big hand. He’s almost certain to fold against aces at that point, right?
So you gained about $200 without risking anything. Is that better than getting your whole $2k stack in as a likely 55% favorite?
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
One more try
Because there’s so much in the pot, and because if he calls you, you know you’re getting it all in regardless of the flop:

I’m asking if you might be better off potting, like you did, then tabling your big hand. He’s almost certain to fold against aces at that point, right?
So you gained about $200 without risking anything. Is that better than getting your whole $2k stack in as a likely 55% favorite?

I want my opponents to call OOP when I have an equity edge

Tabling my cards only allows him to call and play perfectly against me

Also, I expected villain to fold or jam pre, was surprised to see he took the call line OOP

But, later he was calling raises with 9952 ds, calling all-ins with just a gutshot draw on a two flush flop, etc
 

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
4,402
Location
Burnsville, MN
As played preflop, I think this is played fine and the money is going in on this flop at these depths no matter what. And it is really unlucky villian had the last two tens in the deck.

All of that said, Rhodeman makes a very interesting point worth expanding on.

Also, if you are know as a Nitty player making that raise preflop really defines you hand and makes it much easier for Villain to stack off with any flopped 2 pair or even just 1 pair if they don’t have an Ace and have what they figure as 3 live cards to improve.

How many TT hands is hero repotting preflop here? Maybe TTJQ, TTJK? If you have a nitty rep, is it possible hero never has a set on this flop without holding exactly AATT? So this does mean hero is at pretty much the top of his range for this board, but this also means hero is at a serious range disadvantage to the point where villain can play perfectly.

If hero can have more TT hands here, then there may be a case for laying down an AA whiff on the flop. If not, hero probably has to defend against bluffs, but then that raises the question as to whether or not AAxx should be an automatic repot, or perhaps there should be more AAxx hands belong in the preflop flatting range. I know that's forgoing some preflop equity, but it may be helpful in decisions later in the hand, or at least make villian's decision more difficult. This would also be a good idea if hero was averse to variance, but I don't think that's the case :).

So yeah, nothing wrong with how it's played, but I think there are some worthwhile questions on overall strategy to consider because villians will actually find it pretty easy to play these spots unless hero has a wider repot range than AA, But then the paradox is that AA is no longer "top of the range" and there is a case for folding on whiffs. (Though even at this, this board probably isn't an AA to fold, esepcially with hero also holding a T.)
 
Last edited:

Rhodeman77

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
7,472
Reaction score
17,303
Location
Cleveland
I have no history with this player, we were both new to one another

Even if there is no history most people that aren’t very aggressive aren’t 3 betting preflop, especially this big for this size game WITHOUT AA. So Villains default line of thinking will be that you have AAxx. I use this thinking a lot in 3 bet pots against non-aggro players and it pretty accurate most of the time.
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
Even if there is no history most people that aren’t very aggressive aren’t 3 betting preflop, especially this big for this size game WITHOUT AA. So Villains default line of thinking will be that you have AAxx. I use this thinking a lot in 3 bet pots against non-aggro players and it pretty accurate most of the time.

I could do it with AKKx since I have a blocker to Aces. I could do it with a strong broadway hand too like AKQJ ds, AKQQ, AKJT ds, etc
 

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
4,402
Location
Burnsville, MN
Maybe AATT or KKTT ds, but no, shouldn't be a lot of TT hands in my range

Yeah so that's the problem to consider. If the flop is below the pairs in which you have in range, villains may have an easier time just running with anything they figure to be a favorite against an overpair. Which may mean the adjustments that may help in this situation may be

1) Don't automatically go with it on flops below your set range
2) Really loosen up your preflop 3 betting range to include more mid pairs
3) Really broaden your flatting range upward so you have more mid pairs in range as well as AA hands.

I mean I like the pure spirit of going for every edge, but perhaps this hand shows there are tradeoffs, and one is that the lines that lead to the biggest pots here have you as a dog.
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,926
Reaction score
16,905
Location
Tampa, FL
I mean I like the pure spirit of going for every edge, but perhaps this hand shows there are tradeoffs, and one is that the lines that lead to the biggest pots here have you as a dog.

I generally keep pots small and get my money in post flop, except when there is an opportunity to get it in pre or create a low SPR so my decision is automatic on most flops when I have a premium hand

I've gotten it in with top set and nfd and lost to a rivered straight. I've gotten it in with 1 card to come and the guy had 1 out at 2.5% equity and lost, it happens

But shit, just last week I limp-potted from the SB with AQJJ ds and we went SIX ways to the flop and I busted three guys and won a massive pot

Generally I am for reducing variance. But with a premium holding, position and dead money, let's go!

I mean, if I cold call, some of the other gamblers are going to call and I have more hands to beat

And it's possible one or more of them shoves pre, then the guy with QJTT gets it in and I'm never folding
 
Top Bottom