$0.25/$0.50 - Home Game - Fun flop with Td8d

AR_poker

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Your friendly neighborhood spewer played a couple of fun ones last night. Here’s one of them.

*Appreciate any feedback/criticism/roasting!*

Background:

$0.25/$0.50 weekly home game with good friends. 5-handed. Villain (HJ) is my roommate/best friend. We talk poker a lot and have a history of getting into big pots together, and I think he’s a breakeven player in our regular game. Plays wide ranges at baseline. He generally has good instincts and likes to be aggressive if he senses a window for it, even if his range or specific hand have different incentives. Doesn’t really do any studying /etc. away from the table besides stuff like watching Poker After Dark, and can definitely take some unorthodox and spewy lines (though based on my last hand history, we appear to have that in common). When he’s stuck big, he’s prone to tilt shoves or frustration call-offs with questionable hands (e.g. calling off a 4bet shove pre-flop with AJo, 3bet ripping a weak 8 on a 998 flop, etc.). He lost $100 pretty much immediately to start the night, but now that we’re 2 hours in he’s clawed back for a small profit and has ~$240 in front. Back in better spirits. Hero is the effective stack with ~$170. Hero is also one of the shortest stacks at the table. Each player bought in for $50 to start the game, but with rebuys and add-ons we’re all sitting over 300 BBs deep.

Pre-flop:

HJ (villain) opens to $3

CO Folds

BTN (hero) calls with Td8d

SB folds

BB folds

Pre-flop thoughts:

Around 6x open has been the table standard. I think Td8d can go into either a calling range or a 3bet range pre-flop. I’m sure folding is fine given the price, but I’m more than happy to play this hand on the BTN. Villain opens too wide from all positions, and I’d mix a 3bet in this formation with suited connectors as low as 87 at some frequency. Villain has a decent idea of my 3bet range, and I’ve 3bet him twice already tonight in different formations (once with a bluff, once with value). One of those got through pre-flop, and the other I won with a flop c-bet. Definitely some merit to 3betting given how deep we are, and if we get 4bet it’s just a simple fold. I’m not scared of either of the players in the blinds. They’re the two weakest players of the five, will seldom 3bet, and will make mistakes post-flop if they come along. But given the game flow, I decide to flat and keep a favorable SPR for this sort of hand in position. Blinds fold. Let’s see a flop.

*Q: we just folding pre here? Flatting? 3betting?*

Flop:

($6.75 in pot)

Qd 9d Qh

Villain bets $3.50

Hero?
 

grebe

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Honestly, I fold pre here. I don't like gappers as much as others do. Sure, you can justify a call. But against an aggressive player, I want hands I can play back at him. Ten high isn't that kind of hand.

As played, we now have a gutter and our hand will never be nutted. I'm sure you are about to run an awesome bluff or something, in which case your cards don't matter.

Play on, playa.
 

AR_poker

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Honestly, I fold pre here. I don't like gappers as much as others do. Sure, you can justify a call. But against an aggressive player, I want hands I can play back at him. Ten high isn't that kind of hand.

As played, we now have a gutter and our hand will never be nutted. I'm sure you are about to run an awesome bluff or something, in which case your cards don't matter.

Play on, playa.
@grebe you've known me such a short time and yet you already know me so well.
 

JustinInMN

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I probably fold as a rule here unless this is going to be a multi way pot.

But the case I could build for an exploitive call would be you have the button and you know villian is opening wide, so there will be spots where you take pots away later on.

So I am not going to roast the call, even though I prefer the fold as a baseline.

There may be a case for 3 betting, but that feels like an even bigger burn than calling since it's an instamuck if you get four bet and T8 blocks no key cards.

So if you continue preflop I like the flat. Folding is probably better in general.
 
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I'm flatting in this scenario as well. You laid out your reasons very well and I agree with everything you said so far.

I might disagree with the upcoming bluff though. ;)

Flop is a fold. Gutshots on a paired board are pretty useless and will cost you money one way or the other.
You're not blocking any big hands to run an elaborate bluff here so this is where I give up and wait for a better opportunity.

I'm excited to hear what you did though. ;)
 

AR_poker

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Your friendly neighborhood spewer played a couple of fun ones last night. Here’s one of them.

*Appreciate any feedback/criticism/roasting!*

Background:

$0.25/$0.50 weekly home game with good friends. 5-handed. Villain (HJ) is my roommate/best friend. We talk poker a lot and have a history of getting into big pots together, and I think he’s a breakeven player in our regular game. Plays wide ranges at baseline. He generally has good instincts and likes to be aggressive if he senses a window for it, even if his range or specific hand have different incentives. Doesn’t really do any studying /etc. away from the table besides stuff like watching Poker After Dark, and can definitely take some unorthodox and spewy lines (though based on my last hand history, we appear to have that in common). When he’s stuck big, he’s prone to tilt shoves or frustration call-offs with questionable hands (e.g. calling off a 4bet shove pre-flop with AJo, 3bet ripping a weak 8 on a 998 flop, etc.). He lost $100 pretty much immediately to start the night, but now that we’re 2 hours in he’s clawed back for a small profit and has ~$240 in front. Back in better spirits. Hero is the effective stack with ~$170. Hero is also one of the shortest stacks at the table. Each player bought in for $50 to start the game, but with rebuys and add-ons we’re all sitting over 300 BBs deep.

Pre-flop:

HJ (villain) opens to $3

CO Folds

BTN (hero) calls with Td8d

SB folds

BB folds

Pre-flop thoughts:

Around 6x open has been the table standard. I think Td8d can go into either a calling range or a 3bet range pre-flop. I’m sure folding is fine given the price, but I’m more than happy to play this hand on the BTN. Villain opens too wide from all positions, and I’d mix a 3bet in this formation with suited connectors as low as 87 at some frequency. Villain has a decent idea of my 3bet range, and I’ve 3bet him twice already tonight in different formations (once with a bluff, once with value). One of those got through pre-flop, and the other I won with a flop c-bet. Definitely some merit to 3betting given how deep we are, and if we get 4bet it’s just a simple fold. I’m not scared of either of the players in the blinds. They’re the two weakest players of the five, will seldom 3bet, and will make mistakes post-flop if they come along. But given the game flow, I decide to flat and keep a favorable SPR for this sort of hand in position. Blinds fold. Let’s see a flop.

*Q: we just folding pre here? Flatting? 3betting?*

Flop:

($6.75 in pot)

Qd 9d Qh

Villain bets $3.50

Hero?
(note: we can keep going, but it's clear from the few comments where the consensus is, so this might be unnecessary to continue.

Flop (continued x2):

($6.75 in pot)

Qd 9d Qh

Villain bets $3.50

Hero raises to $15

Villain?

Flop (continued x2) thoughts:

Villain c-bets, but this villain c-bets most flops regardless of texture/positional dynamics/etc. We’ll come back to that.

I think this board favors the pre-flop aggressor. First, villain has more nutted hands. We both have a lot of Qx, we both have Q9 (I *might* flat Q9o, but much more likely to have Q9 suited here, whereas this villain definitely has full combos of Q9o), we both have 99 (though I’m likely to 3bet that at some frequency). Only villain can have quads. So, I’d say villain has more nutted hands overall, but also a wide range so those nutted hands comprise a small part of the range.

Second, strong draws. Villain has all the combo draws, though we block a couple of important ones with the Td. For weaker draws, he also has the combo backdoors (KhTh, AhJh, etc.). A lot of our combos of those hands would 3bet pre, though they’ll mix calling some. We both have JT, though again mine is likely just going to be suited (whether or not villain knows that), and I will 3bet that at some frequency.

Third, showdown value. Villain has all AA, KK, JJ, and TT, which could bet or check flop depending on their exact combos/villain’s expectations from me on the BTN. And obviously we both have plenty of hands that connect less favorably here and have marginal showdown value. ATo, 88-22, or whatever.

Four, give-ups. Hands that should want to give up. Clubs or spades suited wheel aces, 8c7c, etc.

**So, we face a bet for about ½ pot. Because I know this villain is wide and because I know he’ll c-bet most textures, I decide to put in the raise.

At the table, I think through my range that wants to continue here. Obviously continuing to this action with any boats, Qx, 9x, diamond draw, or combo draw. Calling at least one with JJ and TT, if we have them here. My diamond draws are in a precarious spot because I can be overflushed, but we could easily call here and evaluate/proceed with caution if diamonds come through. If we call, I *think* I’m folding to a turn bet unimproved, which is unfortunate but whatever. I think this was the trickiest thing for me in this hand: do we do any range splitting here, or does our continuing range just 100% call here? And, even assuming a pure call/no-raise range, does this hand belong?

We have decent equity against range, but I’m worried a raise unnecessarily funnels him to only better diamond draws, Qx, and boats. At the same time, we’re pressing a lot of equity against villain’s range but have zero showdown value ourselves. If we get his showdown value or AhKh/etc. to fold, huzzah. Villain’s hands like JJ are in a genuinely tough spot. Also, I thought at the time that raising here sheds whatever KT villain has (villain would definitely open and c-bet all KTo), cleaning up our J as a straight out. Which, cool, except for the times our straight fills villain’s QJ, or villain blocks with JT. So, nvm, that actually doesn’t help us much on second thought.

Back on the range splitting, I really was just trying to think of what I’d be raising here for value and for bluffs if I wasn’t calling 100% with my continues. For value, definitely raising 99. Maybe raising Q9 suited (kind of weird cause I just have the board so locked). I think I’d call with most of my Qx, though idk if I should be raising some of it. And for my bluffs (the percentages of the time I don’t 3bet these hands), I think JhTh, KhTh, JdTd, and KdTd are all great candidates. I’m a little confused about whether the narrowness of this range means I should just flat them all to protect myself, or whether I’m better off range-splitting by flatting all non-boat Qx, AdXd, and whatever other showdown value/high-equity hands continue while raising this narrow polar range. But, in the moment, I figured I’m likely to 3bet those stronger combo draws pre at some frequency, so I definitely don’t land on this flop with all combos intact. Because of that, and because of villain’s wide c-bet range, I reach down one more pip (and with a critical blocker) to grab this hand and bring it into my flop bluffing range.

I think this raise size is fine enough? I’d normally go around 3.5x – 4x in position, and this raise is around 4.2x. Definitely some merit to going closer to 3x or so to risk less when I’m crushed, but I tried to keep it standard.

Flop (continued x3):

($6.75 in pot)

Qd 9d Qh

Villain bets $3.50

Hero raises to $15

Villain 3bets to $50

Hero?
 

JustinInMN

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I guess I would have flatted against an aggressor, this draw is too good to risk a 3 bet. If you really are able to have q9 here you can probably have other gutshots that are not diamonds as well. That might make better raise/semi bluff candidates. All of your non diamond KJ hands are probably better candidates too.

But your combo draws here I would have firmly in calling range here.

Now that said you choose to escalate here. What are you going to do? I think you only have two choices now. Rip it with the bing combo draw, you may even be ahead of some 3-bet bluffs here, but at the very least you get both cards to realize your equity, plus villain may still have a folding range. Or you pass, but if you do that, you really need to recognize you made a mistake in raising the flop or by calling pre.
 

Steve Birrer

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A. I am folding pre flop. Dont care if 6X is the normal opener.
b. But since you stayed to see the flop no way you can fold post flop. Yes he can have two hands that crush you. Q9 or A or K plus Xd. Other than those hands you have 12 outs, 9 diamonds and the other three jacks. So I would just call. Raising puts you in just this bad spot. Now you have to guess if he has the goods. Or does he have a Q and no diamonds and doesn't want you drawing a flush, or does he have the better flush draw, or does he have a pocket pair, or is he just pushing you around.
c. You're screwed now. The problem is he may be "bluffing" and STILL have a better hand! Fold. There is $75 in the post and you need to put in $35 to call. You are getting 2 to 1. But while you have 12 outs IF he doesn't have a boat or the better flush draw not worth it in my read on this situation.
 
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aggie

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Not sure if this thread will wrap up, but congrats on the suck out, nonetheless. Hopefully a straight flush to really stick it to your buddy’s quads!
 

AR_poker

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(note: we can keep going, but it's clear from the few comments where the consensus is, so this might be unnecessary to continue.

Flop (continued x2):

($6.75 in pot)

Qd 9d Qh

Villain bets $3.50

Hero raises to $15

Villain?

Flop (continued x2) thoughts:

Villain c-bets, but this villain c-bets most flops regardless of texture/positional dynamics/etc. We’ll come back to that.

I think this board favors the pre-flop aggressor. First, villain has more nutted hands. We both have a lot of Qx, we both have Q9 (I *might* flat Q9o, but much more likely to have Q9 suited here, whereas this villain definitely has full combos of Q9o), we both have 99 (though I’m likely to 3bet that at some frequency). Only villain can have quads. So, I’d say villain has more nutted hands overall, but also a wide range so those nutted hands comprise a small part of the range.

Second, strong draws. Villain has all the combo draws, though we block a couple of important ones with the Td. For weaker draws, he also has the combo backdoors (KhTh, AhJh, etc.). A lot of our combos of those hands would 3bet pre, though they’ll mix calling some. We both have JT, though again mine is likely just going to be suited (whether or not villain knows that), and I will 3bet that at some frequency.

Third, showdown value. Villain has all AA, KK, JJ, and TT, which could bet or check flop depending on their exact combos/villain’s expectations from me on the BTN. And obviously we both have plenty of hands that connect less favorably here and have marginal showdown value. ATo, 88-22, or whatever.

Four, give-ups. Hands that should want to give up. Clubs or spades suited wheel aces, 8c7c, etc.

**So, we face a bet for about ½ pot. Because I know this villain is wide and because I know he’ll c-bet most textures, I decide to put in the raise.

At the table, I think through my range that wants to continue here. Obviously continuing to this action with any boats, Qx, 9x, diamond draw, or combo draw. Calling at least one with JJ and TT, if we have them here. My diamond draws are in a precarious spot because I can be overflushed, but we could easily call here and evaluate/proceed with caution if diamonds come through. If we call, I *think* I’m folding to a turn bet unimproved, which is unfortunate but whatever. I think this was the trickiest thing for me in this hand: do we do any range splitting here, or does our continuing range just 100% call here? And, even assuming a pure call/no-raise range, does this hand belong?

We have decent equity against range, but I’m worried a raise unnecessarily funnels him to only better diamond draws, Qx, and boats. At the same time, we’re pressing a lot of equity against villain’s range but have zero showdown value ourselves. If we get his showdown value or AhKh/etc. to fold, huzzah. Villain’s hands like JJ are in a genuinely tough spot. Also, I thought at the time that raising here sheds whatever KT villain has (villain would definitely open and c-bet all KTo), cleaning up our J as a straight out. Which, cool, except for the times our straight fills villain’s QJ, or villain blocks with JT. So, nvm, that actually doesn’t help us much on second thought.

Back on the range splitting, I really was just trying to think of what I’d be raising here for value and for bluffs if I wasn’t calling 100% with my continues. For value, definitely raising 99. Maybe raising Q9 suited (kind of weird cause I just have the board so locked). I think I’d call with most of my Qx, though idk if I should be raising some of it. And for my bluffs (the percentages of the time I don’t 3bet these hands), I think JhTh, KhTh, JdTd, and KdTd are all great candidates. I’m a little confused about whether the narrowness of this range means I should just flat them all to protect myself, or whether I’m better off range-splitting by flatting all non-boat Qx, AdXd, and whatever other showdown value/high-equity hands continue while raising this narrow polar range. But, in the moment, I figured I’m likely to 3bet those stronger combo draws pre at some frequency, so I definitely don’t land on this flop with all combos intact. Because of that, and because of villain’s wide c-bet range, I reach down one more pip (and with a critical blocker) to grab this hand and bring it into my flop bluffing range.

I think this raise size is fine enough? I’d normally go around 3.5x – 4x in position, and this raise is around 4.2x. Definitely some merit to going closer to 3x or so to risk less when I’m crushed, but I tried to keep it standard.

Flop (continued x3):

($6.75 in pot)

Qd 9d Qh

Villain bets $3.50

Hero raises to $15

Villain 3bets to $50

Hero?
Flop (continued x3):

($70ish in pot)

Qd 9d Qh

Villain bets $3.50
Hero raises to $15
Villain 3bets to $50
Hero 4bets ALL-IN for $152
Villain folds

Flop (continued x3) thoughts:

Initial thought: gulp, got caught, GGs, onto the next.

Second thought: I’m worried about just getting myself into a leveling war or a game of chicken with someone who knows my game decently well and whose game I know decently well. I can read too much into the meta of my home game (it’s a pretty regular crew), and there’s a lot of constantly running threads and callback hands and things like that. This was similar to the issue I identified in my last hand history: I can dupe myself into thinking I’m better at reading others than I am or thinking that I’m more attuned to the current meta/game flow than I am (I’m very open to suggestions on how to combat that), to say nothing of the many range/strategy mistakes I’m likely making throughout every session. It’s particularly hard for me in my home game to find an appropriate balance between “here’s a quote unquote solid play” and “this seems like an exploitable spot versus this villain with these leaks and this history”.

Third thought: this is kind of weird. I am fairly certain this villain is going to flat with QQ, Q9, and 99 for fear of scaring me out of the pot. He knows I have bluffs here, and he will usually call and give me rope to continue bluffing. I could see him taking this line with 99 and hoping to catch me with a Q. Yeah, that’s only three combos, but (a) those are a very viable three combos, (b) his range is constricted here from his flop c-betting range, so 99 is a bigger part of his range now even if it’sstill a small part, and (c) there is genuine value to be had in stacking the top of my range with the top of his range. But I think this villain (and most villains) is going to default towards calling with his quads and boats to keep my range wide, allow me to continue bluffing if I’m gonna, and hopefully let me make my flush/straight/whatever so he can stack me. At the table in the moment, I think his Qx should also just be flatting here. In thinking through the spot right now, I think there’s merit tovillain 3betting hands like AQ to try to stack my KQ or QJ and to force my draws into a now-or-never decision. He’s playing a mixed strategy with his Qx hands, so I’d expect AQ and KQ to always be opens and for some/all of his QJ/QT/etc to be limps, so there’s that. Plus, if I flat villain’s 3bet, villain will have an easy shove on all turns that give him a boat or brick the draws given the SPR, If villain has AcQc and I fold my 35% equity with Td8d here on the flop, that’s not exactly a tragic outcome for villain, especially since the turn could easily go check-check, letting my draw get there for free and then fold when I miss. But I think discounting those Qx hands in the moment was a pretty big error.

Fourth (and final) thought: this is kind of bullshit. I think (mistakenly) discounting Qx is what makes me think this is bullshit, but I think this is an overbluffed line. If villain has all his nutted combos, that’s ten hands (one QQ, three 99, and six Q9o). But because I think in the moment that all of those nutted hands are much more likely to call instead of 3bet, this raise seems less value-y and looks more to me like a protection raise with AA, KK or a high equity hand like AdKd or JhTh. Thinking through the spot today, I still believe those boats/quads flat the flop raise, though I’m curious if I’m a minority there. I don’t think there’s any merit to me flattingwith the turn SPR setting up to be what it is, so I think it’s fold or shove. So the question I ask myself: will those hands call a shove? In my opinion, a 4bet shove here reps very narrowly,and villain will basically put me on three or so hands: Q9 (villain will think I have all Q9o combos), 99, and JdTd(mayyyyyybe JhTh). I think villain is going to call with some (likely all?) of his Qx and his boats, and fold everything else. Though we’re hoping for a fold, we’re ~30-36% equity against all of villain’s Qx, so we’re not always dead when called. But because I don’t think villain has top of range through this line, I decide to press my equity through in a spot where I think it’s pretty hard to put me on a lot of bluffs. And because villain was down $100, has crawled out of the hole and is now showing a minor profit, I don’t think villain is going to hero call without top of range.

Post-hand thoughts:

I think I’m sensing a theme to my HHs à probably a punt, and probably way too exploit-focused!
Villain snap folds 55 face up. Lol. That confirms some of my reads (villain is c-betting widely, villain aggresses when he senses a spot, etc.), and it’s personally helpful to know just how wide that 3bet bluffing range can be, but it seems like the kind of example it’d be easy for me to keep coming back to in order to justify bad decisions I make. And we’d learn a lot more if villain snap folds AA or KK face up. If he’s calling off with those hands, then the data points I’m relying on to play exploitably are wrong and need to be recalibrated. I muck, everyone at the table jokes about how I obviously had a boat. Another spew (probably unjustly) rewarded.

***Thank y’all so much for the feedback. Lots to work on!
 
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boltonguy

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Just reading this now. I like the call pre, this probably isnt in my 3betting range but we are IP so a call is good.
My first instinct was to raise with a gutter to the straight flush. Pot is getting really big with a raise though so I can see the merit to flatting here; not wanting to get reraised off such a great hand.
I think the jam is a bit spewy - and I make my fair share of spewy jams if you read my hand histories :) but I think based on your knowledge of V's play it is a decent move. You have a lot of equity here against Qx and even the NFD.
 

JustinInMN

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Second thought: I’m worried about just getting myself into a leveling war or a game of chicken with someone who knows my game decently well and whose game I know decently well.
Agreed. This is one of my most profitable secrets, I don't know why I am giving it away, bit there is no reason to escalate pots against aggressive players when you have good calling hands. The leveling war could have been avoided if you recognized that the combo draw is just too good to fold, but you risked being forced into that spot by raising.

Now in this case it didn't hurt because you made the 4 bet. And yes you are dead to full houses, but that can't be the entire range.

Fourth (and final) thought: this is kind of bullshit. I think (mistakenly) discounting Qx is what makes me think this is bullshit, but I think this is an overbluffed line. If villain has all his nutted combos, that’s ten hands (one QQ, three 99, and six Q9o). But because I think in the moment that all of those nutted hands are much more likely to call instead of 3bet,
I mean the fact you think this is an overbluffed line is reason enough to have a 4 bet shove range. This is actually a pretty good candidate. Especially if you think he isn't doing this with the nuttier hands. But if he is, it's highly unlikely an aggressive player is ONLY doing this with nutty hands. He's probably aware enough that of he is making this play with nutty hands, it's because he needs to balance some bluffs on this line. Perhaps he is overbliffing.

So to me if you can have full house plus as a four bet shove, it makes sense to balance that with a strong combo draw.

So I think good hand overall. I just caution against escalating against aggressive players with medium strength hands. Your default should be to call more.
 

TheDogg

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Really interesting situation. I probably don’t call into a 6x bb with a suited gapper, but I dob’t think it’s terrible either, especially when playing deeper stacks.

preflop I think we absolutely have the price to call with a flush draw and gutshot. It’s not a bad hand to check raise as a bluff either but I think there’s enough equity to call down flop and then turn (assuming we have the correct pot odds) if necessary. Whether or not I check raise, wait for the turn to check raise, or just call until the river if necessary would depend on my read on the player, and what I might need to do to balance my perceived bluff frequencies.
Caveat that I’m not used to playing super deep at all, if flush over flush happens or straight over straight happens I’m used to just being like “fuck it shit happens with 100bb”, but I know it’s different at 300.
 

TheDogg

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Just read the follow up post. Wow, that’s a big read to put your opponent on overbluffing, especially when you block diamonds. That’s super interesting. Obviously this line worked out for you, I haven’t put any real volume in poker yet (play my friends at .1/.2) but it’a super interesting and I learned a lot. I would honestly fold here just because we block villain from bluffing with diamonds as well as straight draws but I honestly also don’t play a lot of people with balanced ranges so I’m working on being more exploitative.
 
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