$1/$3 cash game hand (bad beat sympathy story) (1 Viewer)

I can’t quite remember the exact betting sizes from this hand, so forgive me.

$1/$3 at my local casino last night and I’m playing $450, the villain has about $390 maybe.

I raise it up to $20 in the highjack with . That’s my standard sizing, as people love to limp call in this game.

Villain on the button is probably the only decent player, so maybe that’s my first mistake betting this hand on his button, 3 bets to $50. I considered a 4 bet, but went for the flat.

Flop comes

I check and villain bets $40. I flat.

Turn comes I check and the villain again bets, this time for $80. I was thinking an ace was his most likely holding and considered jamming, since I had the flush draw and gutshot to go with my ace, but wasn’t sure I’d get him off an ace and figured I’d get paid if I hit anyway.

River is the , im giggling a bit inside, but check and he jams for $220, so I snap him off and quickly flip my straight flush only to see him turn over .

Lame.

Not concerned with the outcome, but I do wondered if I should have played this any differently? Is a check raise on the turn a better line? I took a bit of time on the turn, as I was genuinely at odds between a flat or a check raise.

Why did you just check on that flop?

What was the bad beat payout?

Coyote said:

Why did you just check on that flop?

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I had to because he 3 bet me pre flop. I’m checking 100% of flops in that spot.

rimmerryan said:

What was the bad beat payout?

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No bad beat payout in Australian casinos.

why did you play that hand in the first place?

detroitdad said:

why did you play that hand in the first place?

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I was expecting this lol. People are pretty shit at my casino, so I can get away post flop with having a slightly wider range pre.

Although I think I’m fine including any suited ace in my open range from the hijack.

Happy to be blasted by others who disagree though. Please insert opinions.

Perthmike said:

No bad beat payout in Australian casinos.

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(n) :thumbsdown::

If you don't play A2 suited at all, what can you play to not be instantly recognisable all the time?

Perthmike said:

I was expecting this lol. People are pretty shit at my casino, so I can get away post flop with having a slightly wider range pre.

Although I think I’m fine including any suited ace in my open range from the hijack.

Happy to be blasted by others who disagree though. Please insert opinions.

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I’m opening pretty much all suited Aces in late position.

Being out of position I would mix in a 4 bet/fold line to an aggressive button 3 bet.

Rhodeman77 said:

I’m opening pretty much all suited Aces in late position.

Being out of position I would mix in a 4 bet/fold line to an aggressive button 3 bet.

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I agree with the 4 bet/fold line. There are only a handful of players at my stakes 3 betting as wide as 67 suited on the button. I thought this guy was capable of it, but wasn’t certain until he tabled his cards.

I’ll remember next time.

That bad beat would probably be worth at least $50-100k here.

RocAFella1 said:

That bad beat would probably be worth at least $50-100k here.

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hahahaha tell me about it.

The worst part is that the was the ultimate poisoned chalice.

The table was so shocked when we flipped the cards. The dealer couldn’t believe it.

I don't have any problem with how you played it. But now that you know he's 3 betting pre as weak as 76s, you can 4 bet Ax against him comfortably. In retrospect, you could have won the pot foing that.

If he's a tighter 3 better, I don't have a problem with making A2s a raise fold, but I am fine as played too.

Once you both make a flush draw, it's going to the river. Not much you can do.

Here in Tampa FL the bad beat jackpot at the Hard Rock I think is around 250K so your losing hand would win 50% (125K before taxes) and the winner of the hand gets the next largest chunk, then the rest of the table shares the remainder (20% I think)

Pretty sick spot. Closest I've come to something like that is playing online many moons ago, limit O8 and I raise pre AAxx both days, make the nut full house by the turn AND have redraws to the low as well. Both days no low comes, and both days I'm crushed by quads (7's and 9's, which if you know anything about O8, the 6's, 7's, 8's and 9's are generally considered some of the worst to have in your hand, and both my opponents each day called preflop raises with at least half their hands being complete trash)

Seems hard to avoid the outcome. Some hands are meant to be disasters. The quality of play likely made no difference.

If this were an on-line hand, I would say everything is fine. On line play has become remarkably competitive and skillful. But in a cash game vs casino degenerates I have great doubts about the pre-flop action.

A2s is a speculative hand. It benefits from a sky high SPR. I am curious why Hero thinks it is profitable to raise vs call. Are the villains so weak that hero wins with a c-bet enough to profit? Are the villains so good and so familiar with hero that a raise is needed for balance? Is the game so tough that heroneeds to play. Game theory optimal rather than exploitive poker?

what are we to make of the three bet from villain? LAGtard? Skilled lag? Knows hero well enough to make advanced plays?

same thing with Hero’s call. Ace-rag suited is terrible vs a solid 3-bet range and a low SPR. What made hero want to play this hand out of position with an SPR of. Four?

It looks damn strange to me. A sizable error from the outside looking in. But maybe there is more to the story?

Doesn’t matter though. I think both hands get to the river and from there the disaster is certain

DrStrange

@DrStrange i don’t really have a limping range and I like to play aggressively so I included it in my raising range. I do at times need to tighten my pre flop betting range, I’ll acknowledge that.

At the start of this hand, I’d been folding pre for about 45 minutes and the villain had recently folded a couple of hands that had 3 bet pre flop, so I figure he’s 3 betting wider than most.

With regards to his skill, I’d call him skilled, but not lag, but I do expect him to play wider from position and he will know that I am going to be doing something similar. Neither of us know one another well, but are aware enough of each other that we know both of us are decently profitable in this game.

I wasn’t overly happy about playing out of position, but his 3 bet wasn’t large and it seemed nitty to fold.

As you say, once the cards come, it’s all unavoidable from there.

As played you should jam the turn, although the result would have been the same in this hand.

The open is fine, but you can't call the 3bet against this guy out of position, even with good immediate odds. You will get outplayed too often.

But it is apparent this guy is 3betting you light in position preflop, so you should be 4betting or folding your opens in such cases. A2s is a good light 4bet. You don't need to 4bet him too often to slap him. But if you keep calling you will get outplayed.

Would've been nice to see the strategy questions stepped out a little more slowly. It's hard to be objective when I know what Villain's cards are.

Preflop, meh. I can see a case for the initial raise, but calling the 3-bet turns this from a $20 steal-raise with c-bet backup to you playing a 34 BB pot heads-up and OOP against a tricky opponent, with a hand that is the epitome of dominated hands.

Moving along, I think I like a check-raise on the flop. Villain's bet is screaming "that flop sucks for me." If he's super-strong, it's a good spot for a trap. If he's moderately strong, he should bet more to extract value and protect his hand. But he bets less than half the pot, like he's investing the minimum to get you to fold.

Once the turn comes out, I don't think either of you is getting away from this. I'd note, however, that the turn is not a good spot to shove if you think he has a bigger ace and is likely to call. The hand's pretty, but all you have is a gutshot to the third nuts, the nut flush draw, and a pair of aces that is always badly beaten when Villain has a bigger ace. Comes out to almost a 2:1 dog, and worse if Villain has more than one pair.

River plays itself. You shove, he shoves, it doesn't matter.

From cutoff with the strongest player to your left, I’m not sure it’s a pre-flop raise. If it is, small raise. It’s not a strong hand and you are typically looking for a flush, not an ace. Since there were no limpers mentioned and you are in late position, I’d say a small raise is very reasonable - about $10. $20 looks like you’re trying to buy the blinds even if it is your standard raise. With no limpers, it still looks like an over bet. Having said all that, I really don’t mind your play here.

The downfall is the check on the flop. You needed to show strength when you hit your ace. I’m guessing you would not have gotten a fold with your bet, but maybe. At worst, you have more control. Even after checking, a check-raise would have been better than a flat call.

Does anyone think a player capabale of 3 bet squeeze on button w/67s is folding to a lead bet in pos on that flop with second pair back door straight and flush draws? Come on...even at 1/3...even taking control of hand it plays itself on turn with both players thinking gin card.

You were doomed from the deal bud...as these hands see all 5 an extremely high number of times. No matter the action...Basically 100% on turn. No ones folding.

Only realistic shot to win this hand is 4 bet jamming preflop for $400 effective and your going to risk $400 to win $50 with A2s?...not often.

The REAL bad beat is no jack pot in this story lol. That’s terrible. BB jackpot currently 76,000cad here at local..brutal man.

In my opinion it’s a mandatory raise pre. Sizing is too rich for a balanced range of value and hands that play well post flop. I’d target $10-$15 for my entire range but at these stakes I think you can raise more with your best value hands and nobody will catch on. With this hand I prefer $10-15.

I call the reraise all day. Laying way too good a price to fold now and your hand plays well post flop with nut capability with the ace of spades.

Flop I’m checking 100% of my range to the 3 bettor.

Turn is such a sweet spot for check raise. If the villain has just a strong naked ace he is sick to call all in there. We put serious pressure on getting AK AQ and AJ to fold and other drawing hands. We are only getting snap called by AA as I doubt villain is three betting with any other sets. Plus we block an ace. We can construct or range by check raising our sets, two pair hands and AXs, 78s and be much more value heavy. I think this is an ideal hand to put in our check raise bucket. Who knows if he folds his exact hand but it doesn’t really matter. Cooler.

At our casino, the bad beat for that situation is currently worth 500,000! It has been building for a while and caps out at 500K, but that is currently where it sits.

Perthmike said:

@DrStrange i don’t really have a limping range...

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I would probably never advocate open limping with a suited ace in any set of circumstances, but never limping is kind of a bad policy.

Perthmike said:

@DrStrange
At the start of this hand, I’d been folding pre for about 45 minutes and the villain had recently folded a couple of hands that had 3 bet pre flop, so I figure he’s 3 betting wider than most.

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Sorry man but I have to ask how you figure that the open betting pattern you described would translate to a wider 3-bet range. Have you observed a tendency to 3-bet light? Ever see this villian flat pre in position?

Setting that aside, it's possible he was 3-betting light figuring that were opening pretty light - which you kind of were.

Perthmike said:

I wasn’t overly happy about playing out of position, but his 3 bet wasn’t large and it seemed nitty to fold.

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Small 3-bets usually mean one of two things in my experience (from good and bad players alike)... either 1) He's got a monster but wants to price you in to at least see a flop; or 2) He weak and doesn't want to commit a bunch of chips to the pot but also figures you're weak and wants to take control. In this case, he's probably planning to fold to a sizable 4-bet.

Figuring this out in real time is tricky - usually you have to rely on past experience and instinct.

This is also supported by the smallish flop bet. I think you can take a lot of big aces out of his range - when you encounter him again or a similar player watch for patterns that might support this.

What else can we learn about this player from his bet sizing? Does he always bet less than 1/2 the pot on the flop and turn?

Other Thoughts:

In this situation, calling the 3-bet OOP is bad for all the reasons already discussed. The problem with calling is you're now in the position where you have to hit the flop really hard to confidently continue - your hand is well disguised when you do but most of the time you're check/folding post or flopping top pair/weak kicker OOP with no idea where you stand. So you have to commit more chips without knowing whether you're way ahead or way behind.

What's your plan for the turn if you don't improve and your opponent bets $80?

I don't mind the check/call on the flop given the situation to this point. Villain laid a decent price to see the turn and try to improve without too much pot bloat. Many non-ace/non-set/2-pair hands from decent players will check back a blank on the turn. That said, this is where being OOP makes this situation especially unprofitable - it's considerably more difficult to extract value even when you're confidently ahead.

Lastly, let me ask you about your preflop raise amount. Why $20? That's 6x the size of the pot (assuming no limpers - you didn't specify). Is it always $20? Why not mix it up? It's not that there's anything inherently wrong with this, but in general you don't want to bet more than necessary if your goal is to induce folds, and you don't want to kill your action when you want it. I get the logic of betting the same amount every time to avoid predictability, but from the way you described this game, it doesn't sound like it's populated with a ton of observant players.

Last piece of advice: Fold to the 3-bet this time around. But plan on punishing him if he ever tries it again.

There were details missing of course. Were there any limpers? If not, $20 raise into a $1/$3 game shouldn't happen. I'd play that specific hand, but very cautiously. As you eluded to, there were a lot of limp/callers. So, I'm not even certain a raise pre-flop makes sense to me if it's not going to drive anyone out - and clearly that's the case. Even without a 3-bet, if/when an A does come, you're somewhat handcuffed. If an A doesn't come, you can't be too comfortable either. I'd want to play a small pot with this hand.

The problem I see is you've already committed $50 in a $1/$3 game, with A/2s (not on the button). After the dry-flop comes, you check. If you were willing to call a 1/2 pot bet, why not make that bet to begin with? Once he pushes out that post-flop bet - what hand did you put him on? I mean, you can pretty much rule out any small to mid pair based on his pre-flop raise. So, he should probably be holding something like A/Ks, A/Ko, AQs, K/K, QQ, maybe J/J - or he's completely bluffing but that would seem unlikely. In other words, did you think you were behind at that point?