King queen suited (2 Viewers)

If you're going to call pre-flop with KQ suited against an early raiser you put on a good hand, you're kind of committed to following it through when you hit TPSK. What were you planning on hitting? Yes, you were hoping to hit a straight or flush draw, but, in this situation, if you're only calling when you hit the draw, you should have folded pre-flop. I know two wrongs don't make a right, but once you committed, I see no option except to move all in after the flop.

Fold preflop. Strong EP raise is a great reason to dump a trap hand like KQ.

On the flop, I could see shoving or folding to the initial bet, though with two players still left to act, I'm leaning toward folding.

Without them in the picture, a call seems necessary, but only because of the mistake of getting involved with KQ. That's the tricky thing about playing a hand like KQ. You get involved in a big raised pot, you catch top pair, and then you still have to consider folding even when it's just one bet to you, because it's NLHE and you set yourself up to be second-best.

Once you've already called the shove, calling the additional 4,500 is fairly trivial.

Gobbs said:

If you're going to call pre-flop with KQ suited against an early raiser you put on a good hand, you're kind of committed to following it through when you hit TPSK. What were you planning on hitting? Yes, you were hoping to hit a straight or flush draw, but, in this situation, if you're only calling when you hit the draw, you should have folded pre-flop. I know two wrongs don't make a right, but once you committed, I see no option except to move all in after the flop.

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would have been nice.
I see your point, but I disagree for this hand. SB had 14,000 behind when UTG went all in for 9500. Button had about the same. Whatever either of those guys is going to do if I flat, is the same thing they'd do if I jammed.

upNdown said:

would have been nice.
I see your point, but I disagree for this hand. SB had 14,000 behind when UTG went all in for 9500. Button had about the same. Whatever either of those guys is going to do if I flat, is the same thing they'd do if I jammed.

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I agree with this...raise and call are very close in this awkward stack spots. Either one is fine

I called the last 4500, knowing I'd made some bad decisions and that probably a miracle was my only way out.
UTG tabled Aces, and SB tabled pocket 6's. I'm don't even remember how the board ran out.
And if there were any questions about how bad this was, button told me he folded AQ. So I was fourth best.
Very next hand I caught JJ, got in all in pre and lost to KK.
So that's how that went.

I posted this because I needed to think through it some more. I can't decide for sure where I went wrong, unless it was plunking down $50 for this tournament. Like I said earlier, in a tournament with a slower, more reasonable structure, I would have folded preflop pretty easily. But in this fast format, I'm pretty sure you have to take mores risks. Paying to see a flop when you're behind with those cards - maybe that' an unnecessary risk even for this format. Or maybe I just need to have the discipline to realize that I didn't smash that flop and just lay down TPGK.

upNdown said:

I can't decide for sure where I went wrong

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It was here:

upNdown said:

Hero flats.

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upNdown said:

Paying to see a flop when you're behind with those cards - maybe that' an unnecessary risk even for this format. Or maybe I just need to have the discipline to realize that I didn't smash that flop and just lay down TPGK.

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FYP a bit, and I totally agree with both assessments. Re-read some of the earlier posts ITT for confirmation.

upNdown said:

would have been nice.
I see your point, but I disagree for this hand. SB had 14,000 behind when UTG went all in for 9500. Button had about the same. Whatever either of those guys is going to do if I flat, is the same thing they'd do if I jammed.

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That's probably true, which is a reason to move all in now.

- if you flat and they fold, they were going to fold to an all-in, too....nothing lost.
- If you flat and they flat, are you planning to check it down on the turn and river and save some chips? That seems very unlikely. So, nothing lost by moving all-in instead.
- If you flat and one of them moves all in, are you going to fold? That seems very unlikely (and poor). So, nothing lost by moving all-in instead.

Therefore, you are going to get all of your money into the pot no matter and have nothing to lose by doing so. If that's the case, get it in right away and maybe, just maybe, you get the little extra fold equity that gets you the pot. Agreed, it seems unlikely, but if you are going to get all of your money in anyway, you definitely want to isolate. You have nothing to lose and something to gain.

The flop was . Maybe it gets JTs to fold. Maybe it gets AQ to fold (we know the call got AQ to fold after a lot of thinking, but barely). So, if you hit the K on the turn or river, you win instead of getting beat by the JTs with a straight. Or, if by some miracle you are facing JJ instead of AA, getting AQ to fold won you the pot. Even if you are facing KK, hitting the case Q would get you the pot instead of the AQ that folded getting the pot.

If you are going to call with KQ pre-flop, you have to see it through when it hits. (I still advocate the fold pre-flop because hitting the queen is not strong and hitting the flush or straight was not likely. You had that instinct and didn't follow it.)

In NLHE, KQ is just one of those hands, like AJ or AT—sometimes okay if you're bringing it in for the first raise, but it's muck-fodder as soon as someone else with a probable good hand raises. It's too likely to be dominated and unlikely to ever be dominating.

Also, agree with @Gobbs on shoving versus calling the flop. Once a pot is big and you're committed to it, it's best to take the line that gives you the best chance of winning the pot. The difference is small here, but even if shoving only gets SB to fold a few more hands in his range (obviously not 66), it can significantly add to your equity at no additional expense to you.

upNdown said:

UTG tabled Aces, and SB tabled pocket 6's.

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It's all speculative now, but calling with a suited broadway hand isn't inherently good or bad. But like I said before, we're trying to smash the flop with a pair plus flush draw, open ended straight draw with two overs, or a good combo draw, along with the obvious good flops of flopping top two pair or trip kings/queens. Flopping top pair is not where we want to stack off in these shallow stacked (eventually) tournaments.

Though I do commiserate with having to play a decent hand like KQ suited because of the 90% garbage you're dealt for the rest of the tournament.

I am calling preflop knowing that we are most likely going to go multiway with a hand that plays great multiway. TPSK is not a strong hand multiway. When we call preflop there are many hands we can continue with even against UTG overbet shove. Any trips, 2pair, or pair+ (front door) draw, or combo draw like for example. I missed that we also had BTN behind, making this an even easier fold. IMO fold > shove >>> call on the flop.

If UTG bet size was more reasonable (1/3 to 1/2 pot for example) we can call and evaluate. UTG gives us an easy choice (and overplays his hand IMO) with a shove on the flop. UTG is likely to extract more value over the long run with a reasonable size bet/shove line, I think.

We have ~52 blinds and it's perfectly fine to call a normal open size preflop (2x to 4x probably) with a speculative hand and go ahead and fold the flop when UTG shoves 2.5x pot.

All that said, I also don't mind a fold preflop given our perception of UTGs range and our relative early position. I just think a call is slightly better. It's pretty close in my opinion.

v1pe said:

I am calling preflop knowing that we are most likely going to go multiway with a hand that plays great multiway. TPSK is not a strong hand multiway. When we call preflop there are many hands we can continue with even against UTG overbet shove. Any trips, 2pair, or pair+ (front door) draw, or combo draw like for example. I missed that we also had BTN behind, making this an even easier fold. IMO fold > shove >>> call on the flop.

If UTG bet size was more reasonable (1/3 to 1/2 pot for example) we can call and evaluate. UTG gives us an easy choice (and overplays his hand IMO) with a shove on the flop. UTG is likely to extract more value over the long run with a reasonable size bet/shove line, I think.

We have ~52 blinds and it's perfectly fine to call a normal open size preflop (2x to 4x probably) with a speculative hand and go ahead and fold the flop when UTG shoves 2.5x pot.

All that said, I also don't mind a fold preflop given our perception of UTGs range and our relative early position. I just think a call is slightly better. It's pretty close in my opinion.

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I don’t disagree with anything anybody’s written, but I think I agree with this the most.
I just need to get away from that hand after the flop. I KNOW top pair is no good there. But it’s tough to remain disciplined in a tournament where my strategy is to play looser than usual.
It’s a tricky tournament, because loose aggressive doesn’t work. With the available rebuys, people call everything. I’m gonna give it another shot tonight. I’ll just say no to top pair, multi-way.

If we fold KQs, do we have any hands that ever call that flop? I get we can mostly fold because it’s an overbet, but always fold?

Frogzilla said:

If we fold KQs, do we have any hands that ever call that flop? I get we can mostly fold because it’s an overbet, but always fold?

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Great question. I think unless we flippped a set, the answer is no. KK would be really difficult, but if you thought it through, you might find a fold.

Frogzilla said:

If we fold KQs, do we have any hands that ever call that flop? I get we can mostly fold because it’s an overbet, but always fold?

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On this specific flop? 99, 66, AQ...maybe JTs with a backdoor? I don't think we quite have the odds for that though.

I don't think we find ourselves here with KK or QQ (we would 3bet pre).

I'll be a little more lenient band say you went wrong on calling the overshove.

Folding pre wouldn't be bad either given villian's range. it's really a question as to why you would fold a top pair flop. Is it because of the unexpected sizing, in which case the call pre is more excusable, or is it because you have a range disadvantage in which folding pre is better.

If you think the overshove is a never bluff line then you have to fold and take the data point you have to pass kq pre against this villan. If you think there's a chance villian would do this with JJ or TT then I think I'm fine with the hand as played.

Given the read on Villain I would have folded preflop. Bottom line is there are so few flops that really make you comfortable against what you perceive as Villains holdings. I can see preflop call and then only stay if you smash the flop. Minimum at that point for me would be hands like, two pair, open ended straight, four flush. And depending on what Villain bets post flop I might fold anything that isn't the nuts.

I don't like a call here - Under the gone probably has you beat. KQ suited is a fine hand to raise a bunch of limpers when your in position - I might like a call here better if you didn't have so many hands that could raise behind you. Your still pretty early in the tournament - your "m" value is at approximately 20. There is no need to hurry here. you have plenty of time to wait for a better spot.

calling only cost you %5 of your stack but seeing the hand through could cost you 15% to 40%.

KQ suited would be a better hand to open with rather than to call. Your best hand is going to be a king high flush most likely and it will suck when the villain shows you a Ace high flush.

Jimulacrum said:

The difference is small here, but even if shoving only gets SB to fold a few more hands in his range (obviously not 66)

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SB check bottom set and sees all AI followed by another AI over the top (that has him covered) he should at least be considering a fold to a perceived larger set, no? Is SB obligated to call off his stack with bottom set?

Pretty crazy hand. I too would’ve called after I fought off every impulse to 3-bet and Iso UTG from the players left to act. On the flop I would’ve been excited until he jammed.

It smells like an overpair due to him not fearing the flop and going for max value, but then UTG could be trying to maximize his fold equity here with a shove and his small pair. It’s hard to say what I would’ve done knowing the results but I’m capable of calling and folding on the flop.

Definitely calling the extra 4500 due to pot odds and being committed in a tricky spot I put myself in. Oh well you played it out with rational thought and it didn’t work out. Chalk up the experience and off to the next tourney.

Frogzilla said:

Omg call

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This is exactly what I was thinking as I read this

upNdown said:

Hero is in the third level of a Local cardroom MTT. $50 buyin for a 15k stack, also available are either two rebuys or one rebuy and one $50 20k addon at the first break - all that causes people to play fast and loose for the first couple of hours. And the structure of the tournament (runs for 5 or 6 hours on a weeknight with typically around 60 people) keeps the action moving fast all night.
Playing 8 handed at the moment, hero is in middle position with a modest chip lead of 21k.
200/400
UTG, playing about 11k, opens for 1200. Hero is familiar with UTG - he’s a decent cardplayer, but mostly a TAG, so a 3x open from him UTG means he has cards - hero feels comfortable ranging this guy on 10s or better, or else an A with another broadway card.
Fold, fold, fold,
Hero looks down at .
There are three yet to act, each with around 15k.
Raise, call, fold?

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Flat and play in position with 50bigs. Too good of a hand to 3bet and get 4bet and fold. Flatting keeps bluffs in villains range and keeps from loosing more when crushed preflop.

a raise here against a solid player probably be a bad idea here = a fold here is not terrible, you could be against AA or AK = or even worse, you could be up against an Ace/x of your suit = if he had AJ clubs or A10s clubs... the best case scenario you make a straight....

a call here is speculative.... if you believe another player will call behind you with an 89 or something on the ignorant end of your straight....

might be better to call a raise from one of the smaller stack that can not hurt you much... you have a lot of chips so you can afford to be patient.

i respect minraisers call here = however I suspect he is very confident and competent with his post flop play, someone less experienced would probably make more money folding here and playing stronger cards or against a weaker player, or both.

you hit a good flop for your KQs but still it's a very bad spot for esp. when you think about the fact that a solid TAG raised UTG 3BB....

Fold pre and save chips for a better spot.