Jonesey07
Full House
14-16 people, sometimes more. 1 rebuy OR add-on per player capped at the end of break two based on this structure.
Tourney How is this blind structure? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jonesey07
- Start date
BeesKnees
Two Pair
How many chips is a starting stack? What is the rebuy/ add-on?
It looks pretty good except for lvl 17, the blinds are increasing by 200 from lvl 12-16 and then they only increase by 100 on 17. Weird for the blinds to increase by half as much. I would try finishing it like this;
15- 1200/2400
16- 1500/3000
17- 2000/4000
18- 2500/5000
19- 3000/6000
It looks pretty good except for lvl 17, the blinds are increasing by 200 from lvl 12-16 and then they only increase by 100 on 17. Weird for the blinds to increase by half as much. I would try finishing it like this;
15- 1200/2400
16- 1500/3000
17- 2000/4000
18- 2500/5000
19- 3000/6000
OP
OP
Jonesey07
Full House
10k starting stack 10k is the rebuy or addon.
OP
OP
Jonesey07
Full House
I like that change. I’ll make it.
BeesKnees
Two Pair
With the amount of chips in play you will be likely to run a little longer than the levels you have. I would also consider adding;
20- 4000/8000
21- 5000/10,000
22- 6000/12,000
23- 8000/16,000
24- 10,000/20,000
I don’t imagine the tourney will run any later than lvl 23
If you need to keep the 5 hour window you can kill the first few levels and start at 100/200 or you could cut the stack sizes down to 7500
20- 4000/8000
21- 5000/10,000
22- 6000/12,000
23- 8000/16,000
24- 10,000/20,000
I don’t imagine the tourney will run any later than lvl 23
If you need to keep the 5 hour window you can kill the first few levels and start at 100/200 or you could cut the stack sizes down to 7500
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
With the amount of chips you have, you will need more levels, or will need to accelerate the structure.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
...also, your smokers in the group will appreciate a break longer than 5 minutes.
Actually, unless you have 8 bathrooms, a 5 minute break is cutting it a little tight.
Actually, unless you have 8 bathrooms, a 5 minute break is cutting it a little tight.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I'm also not a fan of the 25-75, but it really doesn't play too badly. It keeps the "M" at a more steady progression, and circumvents the 100% increase that occurs in almost all tournaments.
But yeah, I'd never use it.
I think the 25/75 level is great. And I love tournaments that give you a chance to play some poker. But some of your increases seem too gradual - this thing could take forever.
If this is a 10k tournament with a 10k addon or rebuy, you could potentially have 300,000 chips on the table?
One rule of thumb for when a tournament is likely to end is when the big blind = 5% of the chips in play. If there's 300,000 chips in play, that's 15k. If there's 200,000 chips in play, that's 10k.
The changes beesknees proposed are good, and I think the extra levels are necessary.
If that all has you running too long, you can easily knock out levels 8 and 11, and either knock out both 15 and 16, or at least 16.
If this is a 10k tournament with a 10k addon or rebuy, you could potentially have 300,000 chips on the table?
One rule of thumb for when a tournament is likely to end is when the big blind = 5% of the chips in play. If there's 300,000 chips in play, that's 15k. If there's 200,000 chips in play, that's 10k.
The changes beesknees proposed are good, and I think the extra levels are necessary.
If that all has you running too long, you can easily knock out levels 8 and 11, and either knock out both 15 and 16, or at least 16.
1700-3400 for L17, chipping up one level later, and you can leave everything else the same.
OP
OP
Jonesey07
Full House
They were smoking in the garage so that wasn’t an issue but normally we just pause for an extra minute or two if everyone isn’t ready.
OP
OP
Jonesey07
Full House
We finished between 5:30 and 6:00 with 17 players. We had 15 rebuy or add on so it was a healthy little pot!
I ended up adding the extra levels. I think we finished at 3,000/6,000 so it wasn’t too bad.
OP
OP
Jonesey07
Full House
We may end up knocking a couple levels out. Either way we had a pretty good time!
Kid_Eastwood
Full House
Hi,
I'd:
- add 125-250
- scrap 1400-1800
For the next levels (if required, depends on starting stack):
- 3000-6000
- 4000-8000
- 5000-10000
- 6000-12000
- 8000-16000
- 10000-20000
...
Kid.
I'd:
- add 125-250
- scrap 1400-1800
For the next levels (if required, depends on starting stack):
- 3000-6000
- 4000-8000
- 5000-10000
- 6000-12000
- 8000-16000
- 10000-20000
...
Kid.
OP
OP
Jonesey07
Full House
Kid_Eastwood
Full House
Hi,
This seems nice.
My only (small) concern is the 50% jump between levels 5 and 6 which is high considering the nice slow progression of all other levels. That’s why I suggested to introduce 125-250 level.
Kid.
This seems nice.
My only (small) concern is the 50% jump between levels 5 and 6 which is high considering the nice slow progression of all other levels. That’s why I suggested to introduce 125-250 level.
Kid.
18 players, 10K stacks
lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
L5 100 200
L6 150 300
remove T25 chips
L7 200 400
L8 300 600
L9 400 800
L10 600 1200
L11 800 1600
L12 1200 2400
remove T100 chips
L13 1500 3000
L14 2000 4000
L15 3000 6000
L16 4000 8000 ***
L17 6000 12000
L18 8000 16000
L19 10000 20000
Levels 1-8 are 15-minutes, levels 9-16(+) are 20-minutes. Or you can run the entire event with 17-minute levels.
Typical event will end no later than L16, so around 4:40 plus two 10-minute color-up breaks. Hits your 5-hour target dead-center.
lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
L5 100 200
L6 150 300
remove T25 chips
L7 200 400
L8 300 600
L9 400 800
L10 600 1200
L11 800 1600
L12 1200 2400
remove T100 chips
L13 1500 3000
L14 2000 4000
L15 3000 6000
L16 4000 8000 ***
L17 6000 12000
L18 8000 16000
L19 10000 20000
Levels 1-8 are 15-minutes, levels 9-16(+) are 20-minutes. Or you can run the entire event with 17-minute levels.
Typical event will end no later than L16, so around 4:40 plus two 10-minute color-up breaks. Hits your 5-hour target dead-center.
tyrion1705
Pair
@Jonesey07 Do you have an excel sheet or something you used for this? I like how your structure and how its formatted and want to borrow it.
OP
OP
Jonesey07
Full House
No, it’s part of the Tournament Director software. You are more than welcome to use it though!
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
andy699669
3 of a Kind
There would be some inconsistent level-to-level transition rate.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Maybe, but the 25-50 to 50-100 jump is typical. It also gets you fewer "3 headed" looks.
As for the inclusion of a 500-1000 level...
Every tournament has a "killer level", a point in the tournament when players suddenly start dropping like flies. This is because the blinds are catching the "break-even" players - those that are within a blind or 2 of the starting stack. They are close to being pot committed, and the next level will bury them. Adding 500-1000 slows the blind acceleration down, giving players a little longer - a couple of orbits maybe - before they have to pick a pony and jam.
BG's blinds are mathematically solid progressions, but Send's proposed blinds are player-friendly. I use both structures (depending on the chipset in play), and can honestly say neither one is "better".
Note: I do not use the 25-75 level at all, just the slow-down level.
At the risk of sounding somewhat like Matt Savage, the two basic goals of a tournament structure are:
- Provide players with an opportunity to play meaningful poker with no unexpected or unneccessary surprises, and
- Eliminate them in a timely fashion.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I cannot disagree - that does sound like Matt Savage.
25/75 is an unexpected surprise in most circles. You know that. I get the math, but it is completely unexpected, unless the local group is familiar with it.
As for Eliminate in a timely fashion, I don't think it hinders it. We're not in a race to knock people out as quickly as possible, and it allows players that are accustomed to playing with <20 BB to "play meaningful poker". In some groups, players with <20 BB are just jamming to either make the cash game or to get into position for the win. Other groups can play with <20 BB for 10 orbits. They're there for a fun night of poker, and winning is incidental to the game.
It's about knowing your group, and what they expect / would enjoy more.
Wils
Flush
Discuss.
Other than that completely unnecessary pedantry, totally agree.
Some 'surprises' are indeed expected, and the actual surprise only occurs when they ~don't~ happen -- milestone birthday parties, etc. But they really aren't surprises, regardless of the terminology applied.
In my eyes, I like to slightly modify that....
The two basic goals of a tournament structure are:
- Provide players with an opportunity to play meaningful poker with no surprises that could have a negative impact on them.
- Provide a consistent structure that eliminates players in a progressive manner, consistent with the desired time standards.
Therefore, I completely agree that the 25/75 level helps with the first one (it allows more meaningful poker and is not a negative surprise) and adding a 500/1000 level hinders the second (it would spread out the eliminations, but would not provide a consistent structure and may hinder the ability of the tournament to end at approximately the desired time). I also believe, adding a 500/1000 level could create a negative surprise later in the structure. I believe the key to any decent structure is consistency. I don't want to see several 20-25 percent jumps and then all of a sudden have an 80 percent jump. Similarly, I don't want to see a couple huge jumps followed by a small jump. A simple structure with predictable jumps is the key to a good structure.
Changing the levels as mentioned would totally mess it up. As it currently stands, the jump sequence (between levels 1 and 12) is: 50%, 33%, 50%, 33%, 50%, 33%, 50%, 33%, 50% 33%, 50%. This is incredibly consistent and predictable for players. Removing the 25/75 and adding a 500/1000 would change that to: 100%, 50%, 33%, 50%, 33%, 50%, 33%, 25%, 20%, 33%, 50%. To me, this creates a negative surprise for players when the jumps vary so widely, especially when they hadn't seen a 50 percent jump in well over an hour then suddenly get hit with one. This surprise would have a far greater negative impact than an early 25/75 level that is actually helpful to players.
While I have said on a couple occasions that I do not mind a jump from 25/50 to 50/100, I certainly do not mind a jump from 25/50 to 25/75, either. While it may be different for people who are not familiar with it, the first time a good poker player sees it, it takes about 5 seconds (or less) to realize this is something that will work to his/her advantage over weaker players. It's a slight advantage, but an advantage. I'll take the mildly amusing 25/75 blind level over an unpredictable blind schedule all day long.
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SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
I'd rather have the structure a little less of a crapshoot mid/late than to have extra 80-100+ bb play earlier in the tourney. Although just eliminating 25/75 and not adding 500/1k is an option too.
Eliminating the 25/75 and adding a 500/1000 doesn't really give you less of a crapshoot mid/late, it just gets you there faster. Eliminating a smaller blind level for a larger one later will shorten the tournament and provide less overall play, not more. Also, eliminating the 25/75 and not adding the 500/1000 also just gets you to mid/late faster and shortens the tournament.
Believe me, if I had my way, every tournament would have deep stacks, at least 30-minute blind levels, small increments in blind increases, no antes, and last at least ten hours. I love deep-stack, long-format tournaments with a ton of play. Unfortunately, that's not realistic in most cases. The best substitute is usually not to front-load or back-load the tournament with big or small jumps, but just to have very consistent jumps and adjust the starting stacks and blind level times in accordance with how long you want the tournament to last.
If you are hell-bent on getting rid of the 25/75, I suggest increasing the length of the early blind levels (which I am not a big fan of doing) or increase the starting stack a bit. Personally, I'd just leave the 25/75 - it allows for more consistent play.
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