Tourney Stack, breakdown advice for 2 table tournament, light on 1K's (1 Viewer)

BGinGA said:
Really only two solutions if using equal starting stacks:
  • 8/8/2/3/1 stacks -- requires a 160/160/40/80/25 set, using T1000 chips for T25/T100 color-ups and T5000 chips for T500 color-ups.
  • 8/8/4/2/1 stacks:-- requires a 160/160/80/80/24 set, again using T1000 chips for T25/T100 color-ups and a combo of T1000 and T5000 chips for T500 color-ups.
The first option gets more T1000 chips into play earlier, but at the expense of too few T500s in play. Given the better multi-stack option below, I'd choose neither of these.

The following uses two different starting stacks, and is the most efficient use of the set by far:
  • 10x stacks of 12/12/5/1/1 -- put five stacks on each table
  • 10x stacks of 8/8/4/7/1 -- put five stacks on each table
Using T5000 chips for all color-ups, this option requires a 200/200/90/80/26 set, and gets all of the available T25-T1000 denomination chips into play immediately except for 10x T500.
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Wouldn't it be 12/12/5/1/1 & 8/8/4/7 ? But I get you drift.

Either yours or Frogzilla breakdown gets the same distribution out on the table

I see the split stack method is really the only way this will work, it gets all the 25's & 100's & 1K's in play and make the color ups with the 5K's easy. Just need to forget the equal stack OCD and its possible.
 
TheBigTater said:
Wouldn't it be 12/12/5/1/1 & 8/8/4/7 ? But I get you drift.
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Yeah, fixed the typo.

TheBigTater said:
Either yours or Frogzilla breakdown gets the same distribution out on the table
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Biggest difference is that everybody starts with at least 4x T500s with my stacks. His stack breakdowns result in half the players only starting with 2x T500s.
 
BGinGA said:
Biggest difference is that everybody starts with at least 4x T500s with my stacks. His stack breakdowns result in half the players only starting with 2x T500s.
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Yeah I see that now, I was figuring total chips per table. By the time the 500's became a big thing it probably wouldn't matter too much but yeah.
 
BGinGA said:
That's because using a T5000 chip in a T10000 stack is very different than using a T25K chip in a T50000 stack. In the former, the lower denomination chips (T25-T1000) only total T5000, and can create change-making issues In the latter, those same lower denomination chips typically total T10000 (or more). T10K in lower denominations is plenty, but only T5000 in a starting stack is really cutting it close.
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Agree the 50k stack can make plenty of change for 5ks (10000+ in chips under 5k), but the 25k chip is the real issue. In that respect, it’s the same...one chip doesn’t have near enough change under it, and it’s going to be tough (and in rare instances, impossible) to use them until some players have been eliminated.

If going with a 5k each, your idea of having house ready to make change is smart....if OP running two tables should also let a couple folks from other table know that plan.
 
Frogzilla said:
Agree the 50k stack can make plenty of change for 5ks (10000+ in chips under 5k), but the 25k chip is the real issue. In that respect, it’s the same...one chip doesn’t have near enough change under it, and it’s going to be tough (and in rare instances, impossible) to use them until some players have been eliminated.
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I get what you are saying in theory, but for a single table of 50k stacks (assuming 12/12/5/6/3/1, for example), there will be at least 30x T5000 chips in play, plus another 60-75 T1000s..... and usually plenty to break down a T25k chip if needed. Only need 4x T5000 and 5x T1000 to do so -- and by the time somebody needs to break one, somebody else usually has enough to do so.

Typically players won't use T25K chips (unless all-in) in most structures until around L6 or so, at which point usually one bust-out has already occurred, and extra high denomination chips have been added during color-up.

However, you won't get an argument from me that having 8x T5000 chips to start is superior to having just three plus a T25K. Why?
  • moar chips (best reason, obv)
  • need more T5000 chips in play during middle levels than just 3x per player
  • six denominations in a starting stack is stupid-overkill (and likely means either that stacks contain way too many starting BB, or very poor set planning)
Being able to break down a T25K early in the game falls way short of those reasons, imo. :)
 
Something I’ve noticed in hosting — that the choice of how to apportion chips can influence gameplay, even when the total starting stack amount is identical.

In my experience, some people will play differently if they start with more low denomination chips, even though they don’t actually start with more money. Unconsciously, they feel “richer” with more physical chips, even when they add up to the same amount.

If starting stacks were, say, 20K deep with blinds starting at 100/200, using denominations of 100/200/500/1000/5000, here are two extreme examples of how to apportion starting stacks:

Option A:

20 x 100 = 2,000
15 x 200 = 3,000
10 x 500 = 5,000
10 x 1,000 = 10,000
0 x 5,000 chips (used only for coloring up late)

55 total chips @ 20K​

Option B:

5 x 100 = 500
10 x 200 = 2,000
5 x 500 = 2,500
5 x 1,000 = 5,000
2 x 5,000 = 10,000​

27 total chips @ 20K
​
Having more total physical chips may give players confidence, and loosen them up, but also may encourage them to size their bets smaller and at more precise amounts, since it is easier to do so without making change...

Conversely, if you have half the number of physical chips, making change is a pain, so people are more likely to size larger but play fewer hands, in my experience.

Neither of these breakdowns is “good,” but I just thought I’d represent those two polar extremes as an example. Anyone else observed this dynamic?
 
Taghkanic said:
In my experience, some people will play differently if they start with more low denomination chips, even though they don’t actually start with more money. Unconsciously, they feel “richer” with more physical chips, even when they add up to the same amount.
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I've read this many times. I've never observed it, but I've never looked for it either. It it's true, it's because people are stupid. So it's probably true.
 
upNdown said:
I've read this many times. I've never observed it, but I've never looked for it either. It it's true, it's because people are stupid. So it's probably true.
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I do see this at times in both cash games and tourneys, in both home/underground games and casinos.

One encounters personality types who seem crave having a “lot” of chips—meaning tall stacks, even if those towers are of the smallest denomination. This is most glaringly obvious when someone is reluctant to make change (in cash) or to color up (in tourneys). But usually it’s subtler than that, more reflected in betting behavior.
 
... And while I agree that it is “stupid” behavior, I suspect that we are all unconsciously prone to it sometimes—even when we know intellectually that there is no real difference. It’s just human nature.

If I have $500 cash in ones, fives and tens in my pocket, I’m slightly more likely to make a small impulse purchase, such as a candy bar.

If I have five $100 bills in my pocket, I’m less likely to buy that candy bar (not wanting to ask if the cashier minds breaking the C note), but slightly more likely to take my girlfriend out to a nice dinner.
 
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Taghkanic said:
Something I’ve noticed in hosting — that the choice of how to apportion chips can influence gameplay, even when the total starting stack amount is identical.

In my experience, some people will play differently if they start with more low denomination chips, even though they don’t actually start with more money. Unconsciously, they feel “richer” with more physical chips, even when they add up to the same amount.

If starting stacks were, say, 20K deep with blinds starting at 100/200, using denominations of 100/200/500/1000/5000, here are two extreme examples of how to apportion starting stacks:

Option A:
20 x 100 = 2,000
15 x 200 = 3,000
10 x 500 = 5,000
10 x 1,000 = 10,000
0 x 5,000 chips (used only for coloring up late)

55 total chips @ 20K​

Option B:

5 x 100 = 500
10 x 200 = 2,000
5 x 500 = 2,500
5 x 1,000 = 5,000
2 x 5,000 = 10,000​

27 total chips @ 20K
​
Having more total physical chips may give players confidence, and loosen them up, but also may encourage them to size their bets smaller and at more precise amounts, since it is easier to do so without making change...

Conversely, if you have half the number of physical chips, making change is a pain, so people are more likely to size larger but play fewer hands, in my experience.

Neither of these breakdowns is “good,” but I just thought I’d represent those two polar extremes as an example. Anyone else observed this dynamic?
Click to expand...

Not only have I noticed this, I have it documented. Players go through low denom chips rapidly, limping into more pots and calling more bets when it does not require making change. For this reason, My "learner's set" is my only set that uses a T5 chip. It is less cost effective from a chip-buying point of view, but the 5:1 ratio to the next bigger chip puts more of these small chips into starting stacks so new players can "feel the excitement".

I have also documented that new players that start out with a T25 base chip are less likely to return to future poker games than a player starting with T5s. I attribute this to a mindset that tournament chips are still "dollars". Calling a "$200" bet (8x smallest drenom in a T25 set) requires pause, and perhaps even stress that calling a "$40 "bet (8x smallest drenom in a T5 set) would entice.
 
I likewise think there are players (ones you want to retain) for whom a physical impression of having a lot of chips blows away their inclination to count or remember chipcounts accurately.

I would bet that a study of amateurs who attended two tournaments, identical in every respect except the starting distribution, would find that a small yet sizable portion of attendees would remember that one tourney “gave us more starting chips” than the other. And if given a choice of which tournament to participate in again, they would pick that one.
 
You know, it occurs to me if you cap your tournament at 16 players (2 tables of 8) you can do equal stacks of 12/12/5/1 for a T5k start, that would use 192/192/80/16.

Then for the other 5k you can do 2xT500, 4xT1000 for 10 of the stacks, and give 1x5k chip to 6 others. Then you're up to 192/192/100/56/6.

The remaining 24 t1k color up the T25 and t100, and 8 more 5k to color up the T500 if needed.

It's still a two-stack solution, but at least the "lower half" of each stack is identical, so it's pretty easy to lay out in such a way so you have the visual of equal stacks for that half anyway.
 
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upNdown said:
I've read this many times. I've never observed it, but I've never looked for it either. It it's true, it's because people are stupid. So it's probably true.
Click to expand...

I don't play many home tournaments, but in casino tournaments I feel play gets tighter after color ups. Especially the guy that had 40 green chips changed to a single feels the stack shrinkage.
 
JustinInMN said:
I don't play many home tournaments, but in casino tournaments I feel play gets tighter after color ups. Especially the guy that had 40 green chips changed to a single feels the stack shrinkage.
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Maybe. I’ll have to pay attetion next time. You might be right. There are definitely times when everybody tightens up. Often after a break. Hmm.
 
TheBigTater said:
Chips:
25 x 200
100 x 200
500 x 100
1000 x 80
5000 x 40

Also have 10000 x 20 which could supplement the 5K's. Never used 10K chips but they are there.
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With this amount of chips for one table, you can use classic T10K breakdown : 12/12/7/5 or 12/12/5/6.

For 2 tables I’d lower the starting blinds to 25-25 and make T5K starting stacks (which is same as T7.5K on starting blinds 25-50).

10 players could have : 12/12/5/1
And 10 other players could have : 8/8/4/2
 
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