Requests to falsify customs forms (1 Viewer)

Status
Not open for further replies.

dennis63

Flush
Site Vendor
Supporter
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Messages
1,479
Reaction score
3,754
Location
Wilmington, DE
Because this question keeps coming up, I wanted to address it.

No, I can't and won't falsify a U.S. Customs form to mark merchandise as a "gift" to customers outside the United States, or to show a lower amount paid. Permit me to explain why.

1. Integrity matters

If you are here on the Poker Chip Forum, you've stepped into the world of high-end collectible casino gaming products. We deal with one another, and with sponsors and casino industry producers, based on trust and our reputations here on PCF. I've bought, sold and ordered items worth thousands of dollars based on my word and the word of a member here, and have never been "burned." Integrity matters.

2. It's illegal

Making a false statement on a customs form is a felony in the United States. The penalty is a gigantic fine and potential prison time. Changing the amount paid is also a violation of state law, called "falsifying a business record," in my state.

3. It's stupid

Ask anyone you know if they'd like to risk a big fine and jail time in order to save you maybe $3 by conspiring with you to commit a crime and scam the government.

4. I won't sell to you

If you are willing to lie on a government form to save a couple of bucks, you'll probably lie to me after you get the stuff in order to save a couple more bucks.

A few years ago, a customer outside the United States ordered some chip racks and asked me to change the amount he paid on the customs form and mark the items as a "gift," rather than something that was sold to him. In total, this would have saved him around $3.50 in taxes. I declined, but he wanted to buy the racks anyway. I decided to send them. (I won't name his nationality in order to avoid offending his fellow countrymen. He's not a member here.)

The day they arrived at his address, he claimed that he was "one rack short," and demanded a refund for the one rack -- coincidentally just about the same as the amount he would have "saved" had I falsified the form.

He was clever. He was also a liar. I packed the box myself, and took the racks from a full box, so I know how many racks I put in the package.

He got a refund for the price of one rack, and a note informing him that I would never sell him anything again.

Despite being a one-person business, I have a file called "Casino Security," in my computer. It has a list of people to whom I won't sell, and notes about why.

Addressing the "But we'll never get caught" argument

Maybe you won't get caught. I'm pretty sure I would get caught if I violated state and federal law. I'd rather just sleep well at night and know that I am dealing honestly in my business.
 
It's much easier to put this out there up front and avoid the conversation. I appreciate your integrity, sir!
 
I generally try to avoid shipping chips across borders for this reason, and others (e.g. customs holding the chips for lengthy periods, requiring buyers to travel long distances to pick them up in person, levies of unexpected duties, etc.) It’s a shame, but when things go wrong with international shipments they go really wrong. On the rare occasions when I do ship abroad, it’s because either the buyer is someone I really trust, and/or they have agreed to assume all responsibility for any mishaps once they leave my hands. And I usually charge more, to make the hassles of the forms and potential drama later more worthwhile.
 
Thanks for the post! As a newish chipper I wasn’t even aware of this, I’ve just written down what I was told to do when filling out forms (I don’t think I’ve been explicitly asked to lie yet). Is there a specific term you use to describe the package that’s not lying and also conducive to not having packages held up?

I’ve always been told to write down “tokens”, or “game tokens”, and hadn’t questioned it as it made sense to me.
 
Fair enough! The struggles og being an international chipper though. And lol @ doing it for 3.5$. I know it is most often a whole lot more. Just FYI to Norway it is about 30% of the value of the goods and shipping. On a decent sized high quality chip set we are talking about hundreds of dollars added cost.

Edit: not looking to start a discussion about this in your vendor forum, and also not saying you or anyone should or shouldn't do this, just wanted to let the people know what we do struggle with. For many we are talking about chip purchases being viable or not.
 
Last edited:
Great post, and good on you for getting it out in the open. You have a business and your livelihood to protect. It really stinks for the international buyers here, as I understand that taxes and duties can be absurd in some countries. That being said....

As @Taghkanic mentioned, I'm very wary of shipping outside the US when selling. Though I ordinarily wouldn't mind it if I really trust the person or know them personally, the risk of losing the shipment or worse is just too great when we're talking about shipping collectible items worth hundreds of dollars.
 
Great post Dennis!

I don't mind shipping outside the US, yes it takes about 5 more min at the PO. I dont recall fudging price, but have put "gaming tokens" in the description before though. After all are they tokens, chips, or cheques.......

FWIW if someone told me to lie on the form I wouldn't make the sale though
 
Thanks for the post! As a newish chipper I wasn’t even aware of this, I’ve just written down what I was told to do when filling out forms (I don’t think I’ve been explicitly asked to lie yet). Is there a specific term you use to describe the package that’s not lying and also conducive to not having packages held up?

I’ve always been told to write down “tokens”, or “game tokens”, and hadn’t questioned it as it made sense to me.

In Canada all gaming related items are duty free. I prefer gaming tokens only because poker chips sounds more like something valuable that might be stolen by the posties. I do the same when shipping.

There isn't much point to lying about the value when shipping to Canada. It's duty free. There is customs clearance fees and tax on the value but in my experience most packages sent via USPS don't get inspected by customs and pass directly to the purchaser.

The best reason for writing down the full value is that otherwise you have no claim to the true value if the package is lost or stolen.
 
Just out of curiosity, is it about saving money on taxes or is there regulatory issues with poker chips? Are poker chips more likely to get flagged then say “board game accessories”?

So far, I've only encountered one country that outright bans chips, cards and dice. That's Thailand. Chips should be marked on the form as "non-value," unless they are live and redeemable.

when selling outside the US you take the VAT off from your final price ?

No. There's no room in the price of an item to "take the VAT off." Some countries charge 30 percent on goods entering their borders. I don't make 30 percent on any item I sell. I lose money on chips, and make less than 10 percent on other items, and I don't make my living doing this. If I did, I would starve.

The VAT charged by a foreign nation is the tax law in that country. I have nothing to do with that. Frankly, if you live in a country blocking imports from the United States by charging high taxes on imports, and you're not happy about that tax policy, you should work to change it there.

I don't say this to offend anyone, but I want to be honest about the topic. I don't get anything because a foreign government charges a 30 percent tax on U.S. imports. Maybe you don't either.

But I get it. The good stuff is also expensive, and you are looking to save where you can. It's just not worth the risk.
 
:tup:

Great post, Dennis!

What about including a note stating that I am “charming, intelligent, attractive, and a damn good poker player”? Would that strain your integrity too much? :)
 
:tup:

Great post, Dennis!

What about including a note stating that I am “charming, intelligent, attractive, and a damn good poker player”? Would that strain your integrity too much? :)

If we're caught in that lie, I could always claim I was thinking of somebody else.
 
The VAT charged by a foreign nation is the tax law in that country
I'm not referring to the VAT of the destination country, I was asking for the US VAT tax on the final price (I understand that it's between 10% and 15% depending on the state ?)
 
  • Like
Reactions: JWC
I'm not referring to the VAT of the destination country, I was asking for the US VAT tax on the final price (I understand that it's between 10% and 15% depending on the state ?)
No value taxes for exports in the U.S.A. There is a state sales tax on most items in most states, typically 5-6% paid by the buyer (collected by the seller and paid to the state).
 
I completely understand what Dennis says, if you (like him) are a business, liable to fiscal and Customs Law of your country.
Among individuals, however, there 's clearly no need to bleed money-wise for the sake of Governments.
Import taxes / custom fees to the EU (and, even worse, to specific countries in the EU) are just obscene.

An American lady married and residing in Greece, friend of mine, got taxed by the infamous Greek Customs, on the used baby clothes her American sister sent her from the US, to serve as baby clothes from the former's daughter to the lattter's younger daughter.:mad:
In these cases, just write zero value.
 
Among individuals, however, there 's clearly no need to bleed money-wise for the sake of Governments.
Sure, what's the risk if I get hit with a felony (and lose my license and can no longer work) just so you can save a few bucks?

I've adopted a policy similar to @dennis63's. If it costs me a sale, so be it. Selling chips is not my livelihood. I'm certainly not going to let it endanger my livelihood.
 
No value taxes for exports in the U.S.A. There is a state sales tax on most items in most states, typically 5-6% paid by the buyer (collected by the seller and paid to the state).

As usual, BGinGA is correct here.

I'm in Delaware, where there is no sales tax. So tax = $0.00. The business is still small enough to be exempt from paying taxes to states where I don't have a physical store, which is all of them.

And (BGinGA is correct again), I don't have to pay taxes or fees to export things. None of this stuff requires an export license.

So I don't charge anyone tax. I pay tax to my state on any profits, if we make them, at the end of the year.

I actually sat for two hours yesterday with a "mentor" from the U.S. Small Business Administration. He gave me four pieces of advice:

1. Stop selling chips. You're not making money on them. (Not gonna do this.)

2. Raise prices by 50 percent on most things. (Not gonna do this.)

3. Stop selling American-made goods and find new suppliers on the websites Etsy, Alibaba and Madeinchina. (Not gonna do this.)

4. Start accepting credit cards through Square.

As of last night, we now accept credit cards.
 
Sure, what's the risk if I get hit with a felony (and lose my license and can no longer work) just so you can save a few bucks?

I've adopted a policy similar to @dennis63's. If it costs me a sale, so be it. Selling chips is not my livelihood. I'm certainly not going to let it endanger my livelihood.
Look, I respect the cultural gap between living in a lawful (though not necessarilly just or correct) Polity and living in an unlawful one. But the individual taking the risk is basically the recipient.
I also cannot imagine any Customs officers, the world over, considering "used toy tokens" to be worth anything more than $.25 per:)
 
My wife's an artist and started doing some pet portrait commissions for fun. Once we found out about the (Texas) sales tax requirements, and reporting needs it went from fun to a huge PITA. She still has to report sales tax every couple months even though the value is zero (she hasn't done one in a year).

She also got Square - makes life so much easier for everyone even though they take a chunk in fees.

Anyway, I have huge respect for those small/micro businesses providing stuff for us chippers. If there wasn't love for the chips, I bet you wouldn't do it.
 
There is a state sales tax on most items in most states, typically 5-6% paid by the buyer (collected by the seller and paid to the state).
Yep, like in most of the countries. However is the % that vary.
By chance as it's a value added tax paid by the buyer and we don't have it to paid it twice, most of the online retail sites automatically deduct that tax at the end of the shopping process.
It means, in the case of Europe, that if I purchase an item in France I have - 20% on the final price and I will paid my 8% when the item reach my country.
Same principle of the the VAT tax refund when you visit a foreign country.
 
Great post Dennis, from a business perspective I 100% understand your POV.
Looking at Belgian customs...it would not matter since they ignore all the 'gifts' and other 'tricks' to lower value.
They just hold the item, ask for an invoice...if you comply they calculate VAT on the price of the invoice/CC payment/PP transfer.
If you don't they ship it back to the sender or they destroy the package.

But bare with me.....because they are many flaws in this system.

1. value of the item + shipping cost = base for taxation -> WTF, why do I have to pay VAT on shipping ? (espec. if you know the current prices for international shipping).
2. always a handling fee on top (+/- $35)
3. 21 yes 21% VAT on top

So....if I buy a set of 500 clay chips @$2

=$1000 purchase
= $25 fee PP payment (now a flat fee...before 3%)
= $25 fee PP EURO/$ exchange
= $100 large flat rate box
= $150 VAT
= $35 handeling fee

So my $1000 set is costing me $335 more (almost a 35% overhead)....that is not a few dollars.

I don't trouble sellers with international shipping (and plenty don't even offer it).
So I have an awsome friend in the states that collect all my scores and combines them in 1 package.
When I buy from a business, I ask but understand if they don't want to...and just cough it up ;)

The lower value could also be a problem when a package is lost or damaged.
Insurance (if any) will be limited (you can't claim what you don't state in value).
Since I would never expect a private seller to make me whole...it's another risk.

So please understand the shitty position we international chippers/shippers are in and bare with us a bit
If not...I will add a 35% tax should I ever sell any of my sets back to US and send it direct to the president/IRS/customs/add choice :D :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom