How to tell someone that "Selectively Chopping" is a d*ck move without being a d*ck yourself? (1 Viewer)

[Jimulacrum]

I think the chopping etiquette should simply be one-chop-always-chop among participants. I have chopped AA before, I didn't die, you won't either. Jackpots and promos are lame excuses to make selective exceptions. If you really want to maximize your chances at these promotions, you shouldn't be a chopping player in the first place.

Why should anyone have to justify their "exceptions"? It's an optional action, not a mandate.

There's no rule. There's no etiquette. There's no agreement that chopping one time means chopping always. No one needs to have a reason one way or another, just like you don't need a reason not to straddle after you straddled last orbit. It's each player's choice. If you feel like doing it, do it. If you don't, don't.

Keep in mind, though, that if the goal is to chop as much as possible to avoid rake, then refusing to chop with anyone who won't chop 100% of the time is actually hurting your goal, not helping. If you instead always offer to chop, and let the other player chop according to his choice, you'll probably end up with more chops on average and thus (slightly) less average rake.

Doesn't seem like that's the goal, though.

 

[Deucekies]

The cardroom where I used to play in college, it was a rule that you either always chopped or never chopped, and it was enforced by the dealer. For years, I assumed this was the rule everywhere.

 

[liftapint]

It's each player's choice.

Maybe OP doesn't believe in that?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Maybe OP doesn't believe in that?

This is sounding more and more like anarchy to me.

 

[Jeff]

I don’t agree with the premise that that if you chop once or with one person, you have to chop all the time.

 

[JustinInMN]

Why should anyone have to justify their "exceptions"? It's an optional action, not a mandate.

Because once someone gets selective, they are in a position of advantage. I didn't think that was complicated. If the point of chopping is to avoid situations where the house is going to take a full 10% + jackpot take (which could represent upwards of 20-30% of the loser's contribution to the pot) there shouldn't be exceptions. There aren't many hands guaranteed to be better than that.

I don’t agree with the premise that that if you chop once or with one person, you have to chop all the time.

That was not my intent. With each person, if you chop once you should choose everything. If some players do not chop everything you are under no obligation to chop with those individuals just because you chop with others.

Playing blind v blind is the rule. Chopping is the option. It's popular because it's not a very profitable situation without dead money in the pot to go down the drop.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I never chop, only run it once, and here to play poker

 

[Machine]

Chopping in a raked game, especially low to mid stakes where rake is multiple big blinds and only two players contesting the pot, makes a lot more sense. In a time game, other players at the table are out maybe half-a-hand. I don't think it's that big a deal to play.

I think the chopping etiquette should simply be one-chop-always-chop among participants. I have chopped AA before, I didn't die, you won't either. Jackpots and promos are lame excuses to make selective exceptions. If you really want to maximize your chances at these promotions, you shouldn't be a chopping player in the first place.

And on an aside, if chop situations come up too often, it's a sign you are in a bad game.

Well stated, and I agree, I assumed a rake in my response.

There's no etiquette.

The anarchy thread is in the off topic forum!
Of course there is etiquette, picking and choosing is considered rude and an imbalance. Expecting someone to take an unfair advantage when you think you are a head and allowing you to chop when you think you are behind. I think the term for that definition is called angling.

If I wanted something like that I would bet sports, where I would be paying some one 10% every time we flipped a coin weather I win or lose.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Well stated, and I agree, I assumed a rake in my response.


The anarchy thread is in the off topic forum!
Of course there is etiquette, picking and choosing is considered rude and an imbalance. Expecting someone to take an unfair advantage when you think you are a head and allowing you to chop when you think you are behind. I think the term for that definition is called angling.

If I wanted something like that I would bet sports, where I would be paying some one 10% every time we flipped a coin weather I win or lose.

Etiquette is a generally accepted set of behavioral guidelines. You can see from the contents of this thread alone that it's not generally accepted. It's presumed to be generally accepted by people who like chopping, who then try to foist it on others like you're doing. That isn't to say there's no logic behind it, but it's not etiquette. A significant portion of players don't even know it exists, to say nothing of those who know of it and disagree.

You are offering an optional action with no more specific terms than "Wanna chop?" A person choosing to accept it or not—based on his own criteria, since you provide none until you start an argument if he rejects your offer—is not angling. He's doing nothing wrong. He's not attempting to skirt the rules or trick you. He's completing a binary choice that you are freely offering him.

If you're going to judge people who selectively chop as angle-shooters, at least make it a fair game upfront. Be clear about what your expectations are. Don't stop at "Wanna chop?" Tell them that if they do it this once, you expect them to do it every time you offer—that they're entering into a sort of social contract, and if they violate it, your opinion of them will sink to that of a borderline cheat (or just a plain-old dick, as OP suggests). Hit them with all this overbearing stuff upfront so they know what kind of party you're inviting them to.

Then, if the person accepts the first time and turns down the second time, it's fair to say that's rude. But it's also fair to say you walked into it.

 

[Machine]

Etiquette is a generally accepted set of behavioral guidelines.

Agreed.

You can see from the contents of this thread alone that it's not generally accepted.

Disagree, small sample set especially compared to the live games I've played in, but we can call this a non sequitur and toss out the argument all together, regardless of ad populum.

It's presumed to be generally accepted by people who like chopping, who then try to foist it on others like you're doing.

Yikes! I never said I expect everyone else to always chop or even that I have an expectation that anyone will ever chop at all.

Once chopping is established, my point is this:

picking and choosing is considered rude and an imbalance. Expecting someone to take an unfair advantage when you think you are a head and allowing you to chop when you think you are behind. I think the term for that definition is called angling.

Wanting to chop in one instance and not another AND not have an EQ / IQ high enough to see how this is infantile or being so self-centered that someone would think that it's okay, is a dick move - full stop

Even monkeys have a sense / understanding of fairness and Etiquette.


And Dude! I'm not just spit balling here; I've actually read book on the subject ...

 

[bergs]

You can't. I'm not usually so blunt about it, but if you're looking for an honest opinion and not just validation …

This is a you problem. You don't like that he wants to chop inconsistently and you're trying to impose it on him via an etiquette point that effectively doesn't exist.

Yes, this!

There's no general etiquette about this except among people who like the idea of chopping. The rest of us don't care, don't know about chopping, or don't realize that your clan has a thing about it. Objectively, it's fair either way and doesn't really affect anything. (Exception noted in @Schmendr1ck's post.)

See also: Players who get ornery when another player runs it twice sometimes but not always.

No, fuck those people with acid spray and sharp sticks.

 

[Machine]

Yes, this!

No, fuck those people with acid spray and sharp sticks.

Typical bergs, always fucking straddling!

 

[bergs]

Here’s what I recommend:

1) ask to chop if they have chopped before
2) if they say no, play the hand ruthlessly aggressively
3) when you win, parade around the table like you’re a Field Marshall in Napoleon’s Grand Armee while loudly and rhythmically chanting “YOU SHOULDA CHOP! YOU SHOULDA CHOP”. If you can grab something that you can brandish like a baton that would be ideal, so as to further enhance your assumed position of unadulterated power and supreme authority.

Alternative take:

- if he has an original name like Herbert or something, ask the brush to change the name on your players card for waitlists to HERBERT SUX or something of that ilk.

FWIW, if his name really is Herbert, that’s pretty much the dream scenario. You’ve hit the jackpot.

 

[bergs]

Typical bergs, always fucking straddling!

SILENCE YOUNGLING!

(Nods at @Josh Kifer and points surreptitiously at DeuxEx to be quietly but summarily removed from the premise)

 

[bergs]

Yes, this!

No, fuck those people with acid spray and sharp sticks.

NOTE: I am not advocating really spraying people with acid. That’s fucking horrible IRL.

 

[Josh Kifer]

SILENCE YOUNGLING!

(Nods at @Josh Kifer and points surreptitiously at DeuxEx to be quietly but summarily removed from the premise)

ALRIGHT. GTFO @Machine. JABBA WANTS YOU OUT.

 

[bergs]

Yes, this!

No, fuck those people with acid spray and sharp sticks.

ALSO NOTE: if you see me carrying a pool stick in a poker room, you better run it twice.

 

[bergs]

ALRIGHT. GTFO @Machine. JABBA WANTS YOU OUT.

Thank you Jo—

Mods, $50 if you rename Josh to “Rancor_Lunch” for a period of 2 weeks.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Thank you Jo—

Mods, $50 if you rename Josh to “Rancor_Lunch” for a period of 2 weeks.

Fuck yeah.

 

[chipinla]

Just say "OK... DICK!" When he responds "no my name is Charlie"... "ohh it might be Charlie, but you are also a Dick!" Lol

“Richie” works much better.

 

[chipinla]

Also, people chop pots? I’m so confused by PCF lately.

 

[Machine]

ALSO NOTE: if you see me carrying a pool stick in a poker room, you better run it twice.

I don't know if anyone has ever told you, if you march around a poker table chanting YOU SHOUDA CHOPPED, no one will ever 'not' chop or 'not' run it 2x with you again! And look you don't need a pool stick to be intimidating hahaha

Mods, $2.50 to rename bergs to 'Tiny' because its significantly more accurate.

EDIT: for those that don't know, while I couldn't find a picture of bergs, bergs is this guys stunt double, but bergs is a little taller:

 

[chipinla]

Thank you Jo—

Mods, $50 if you rename Josh to “Rancor_Lunch” for a period of 2 weeks.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Yes, this!

No, fuck those people with acid spray and sharp sticks.

I specifically had you in mind when I added that part.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Disagree, small sample set especially compared to the live games I've played in, but we can call this a non sequitur and toss out the argument all together, regardless of ad populum. [with regard to etiquette requiring general acceptance]

Popularity isn't just an argumentum ad populum when it comes to etiquette. It matters what everyone thinks because the premise is that this is a generally accepted/expected mode of behavior. How could it be that if it's only even known about by a handful of players and agreed upon by even fewer?

Once chopping is established, my point is this:

This is the core of my last diatribe.

Chopping is not "established" by you getting a guy to agree to chop one time without explaining this supposed etiquette you expect him to follow.

You're baiting a guy into doing a thing you like and then making him feel pressured to keep doing it because he'd be a "dick" otherwise.

It's bullying behavior. Quit it. Be upfront about your expectations or set them aside.

 

[bergs]

I specifically had you in mind when I added that part.

I specially had you in mind when I mentioned sharp sticks (j/k, it was MatB)

 

[bergs]

Popularity isn't just an argumentum ad populum when it comes to etiquette. It matters what everyone thinks because the premise is that this is a generally accepted/expected mode of behavior. How could it be that if it's only even known about by a handful of players and agreed upon by even fewer?


This is the core of my last diatribe.

Chopping is not "established" by you getting a guy to agree to chop one time without explaining this supposed etiquette you expect him to follow.

You're baiting a guy into doing a thing you like and then making him feel pressured to keep doing it because he'd be a "dick" otherwise.

It's bullying behavior. Quit it. Be upfront about your expectations or set them aside.

He’s right, y’all.

Asking a player to chop once and then expecting him to do the same action everytime is a form of bullying, and we don’t condone that in a cardroom. Poker is designed to be a fun recreational inclusive activity where players of all skills and experience can come together to enjoy this great and challenging game.

If we make players feel bullied or insignificant from following or not following some arcane habit known only to us, it’s not only not fair to them, it paints the entire game in a negative light.

This is why when I play, I don’t have the expectation that players will take the same action every time when presented with a chop opportunity.

Cardrooms bring people together from all walks of life, all with different backgrounds, and though we’re strangers, we all enjoy the game.

And since we’re usually all strangers, if someone looks like they might not chop, I tell them “look, I don’t care if you chop or not. You do you. You do what makes you comfortable”.

Then I find the largest person in the room and point them out to the player, assuming they don’t know each other as we’re largely all strangers. And I say: “if you don’t chop though, that guy is going to uncomfortably put you in the back of his ‘83 Buick and drive you out to the quarry while he listens to the sweet sounds of Lynyrd Skynyrd.

I don’t usually have a problem with people not chopping. Just be kind. Nobody wants to listen to Lynyrd Skynyrd from inside the trunk of an ‘83 Buick.

 

[Machine]

Popularity isn't just an argumentum ad populum when it comes to etiquette. It matters what everyone thinks because the premise is that this is a generally accepted/expected mode of behavior. How could it be that if it's only even known about by a handful of players and agreed upon by even fewer?

I'm not arguing Chopping is etiquette, my argument is once someone agrees to chop, that's what makes this argument a non sequitur, this premise isn't required to make the argument that Selectively Chopping in the BB is a dick move, once you've agreed to chop.

I'm not trying to be a prescriptivist, and again, I'm not trying to argue that Chopping is the etiquette, if I was the burden of proof would be a bit challenging as the goal would move to or even start from, setting a delineation of what is a valid opinion for chopping; I mean if someone is unaware, is their ignorance a valid point against it being etiquette, if they don't play often enough to know its a thing, I'd have a hard time including them as a valid datapoint here. Digressing as again not needed to sustain my assertion.

Chopping is not "established" by you getting a guy to agree to chop one time without explaining this supposed etiquette you expect him to follow.

You're baiting a guy into doing a thing you like and then making him feel pressured to keep doing it because he'd be a "dick" otherwise.

Its hard to read this as a 3rd person, I hope this isn't directed at me, but rather the rhetorical 'you', a euphemism.
I'm not the villain here, I'm only the villain when playing rags to catch AAs and hitting, most of the time I flop the nuts, and they don't hold up.

I would, I have explained the options in the past to others highlighting its not about a particular hand, and show quality hands I chop; and if they decline, I typically fold or raise.

Lets try this slightly different way, in a world of inequalities, without etiquettes where there are no expectations on anyone to have any humanistic concerns, where bully-ing runs ramped and people only care about money and winning a hand, and looking for any advantage:

Given only the option to chop or not to chop, no pretext given, a person that would chop with one hand, and not chop with another hand is a dick.

It's bullying behavior. Quit it. Be upfront about your expectations or set them aside.

Bully-ing, you're suggesting someone that is un-concerned with a fair game, a balance, for personal gain at the behest of another human would be the 'bullied' in this scenario?

If I considered You a dick, privy to my foist judgement, would You lose sleep over it? You being labeled as a dick carries my distain and all the weight there of yes? what am I going to do, put you on the asshat list and not sell to you, pfft I'm not so frail. - You're going to keep the position, we can't agree the guy is a dick?

I don't btw, and I appreciate the discourse, you're getting style points for the location

Boiling this down further, expecting someone to chop when you (proverbial) have a shitty hand, and then letting you take advantage of them when you have a good hand is the quality of a poor human. Synonymous with being a dick.

I mean at this point if you can't agree, I think we are at an impasse

 

[ekricket]

I’ll consider a chop if you show me your hand first.

Then I’ll call the floor and point out you exposed your hand with action pending.

In for a penny, in for a pound.
Label me and I’ll do my best to live up to your expectations.

Chopping is for nits. If your worried about the rake just fold your SB and move on. Play poker or move on.

 

[Nanook]

I have a hard time believing that people can't decern how this is a dick move, or basically saying 'fuck you' through their actions;

Exactly how I see it too.

I have to wonder what the original poster is thinking? Please tell me this is a joke, right?

Chop if you want. Decline if you don't want to chop. Please don't waste the table's time whining about this. How big a problem can it be?.........Why make this trivial thing an issue at the table? -=- DrStrange

Really?

99% of the people in this game chop 100% of the time. My preference would be to never chop as I believe I have a significant edge over just about everyone in every game I play in. I am asking how to politely ask so as to not offend and make the game as welcoming as possible and I get this?

......There's no etiquette. ..........Keep in mind, though, that if the goal is to chop as much as possible to avoid rake.....

When 99% of the people in the game always chop 100% of the time I would have to disagree and say there is etiquette.

Maybe OP doesn't believe in that?

Touché

I don’t agree with the premise that that if you chop once or with one person, you have to chop all the time.

You are right, you don't, but if you "selectively chop" you are going to come across as an ass. No idea how anyone can't see that. See the next post below as to why if you can't wrap your hear around the concept.

Because once someone gets selective, they are in a position of advantage. I didn't think that was complicated. If the point of chopping is to avoid situations where the house is going to take a full 10% + jackpot take (which could represent upwards of 20-30% of the loser's contribution to the pot) there shouldn't be exceptions. There aren't many hands guaranteed to be better than that.



That was not my intent. With each person, if you chop once you should choose everything. If some players do not chop everything you are under no obligation to chop with those individuals just because you chop with others.

Playing blind v blind is the rule. Chopping is the option. It's popular because it's not a very profitable situation without dead money in the pot to go down the drop.

Well said.

......Of course there is etiquette, picking and choosing is considered rude and an imbalance. Expecting someone to take an unfair advantage when you think you are a head and allowing you to chop when you think you are behind. I think the term for that definition is called angling......

Exactly

Etiquette is a generally accepted set of behavioral guidelines. You can see from the contents of this thread alone that it's not generally accepted. It's presumed to be generally accepted by people who like chopping, who then try to foist it on others like you're doing. That isn't to say there's no logic behind it, but it's not etiquette. A significant portion of players don't even know it exists, to say nothing of those who know of it and disagree. .......

It may not be generally accepted here amongst the few responders, but I can assure you that in the game I was playing in, it is.

.....Yikes! I never said I expect everyone else to always chop or even that I have an expectation that anyone will ever chop at all.

Once chopping is established, my point is this:


Wanting to chop in one instance and not another AND not have an EQ / IQ high enough to see how this is infantile or being so self-centered that someone would think that it's okay, is a dick move - full stop.....

You said it better than I could have.

Popularity isn't just an argumentum ad populum when it comes to etiquette. It matters what everyone thinks because the premise is that this is a generally accepted/expected mode of behavior. How could it be that if it's only even known about by a handful of players and agreed upon by even fewer?


This is the core of my last diatribe.

Chopping is not "established" by you getting a guy to agree to chop one time without explaining this supposed etiquette you expect him to follow.

You're baiting a guy into doing a thing you like and then making him feel pressured to keep doing it because he'd be a "dick" otherwise.

It's bullying behavior. Quit it. Be upfront about your expectations or set them aside.

None of this is remotely the case. In fact I think the exact opposite is true of each and every point you make:

.....Given only the option to chop or not to chop, no pretext given, a person that would chop with one hand, and not chop with another hand is a dick......

Boiling this down further, expecting someone to chop when you (proverbial) have a shitty hand, and then letting you take advantage of them when you have a good hand is the quality of a poor human. Synonymous with being a dick.

I mean at this point if you can't agree, I think we are at an impasse

Someone gets it