QQ in the bb (1 Viewer)

To me, this is a reason to check the turn and the point I was trying to make. Look to check/call, or if turn goes check/check, same on the river.

ck/ck turn would be ideal, but my point is if the pot is $475 and a lag has position, he's probably going to be betting into us. I'd rather lead the action with a small feeler bet rather than have to ck/call a $300-400 turn bet and ck/fold to a river shove. I think it's close which line is ideal, but I'd rather lead or lead/fold than ck/call.
 
ck/ck turn would be ideal, but my point is if the pot is $475 and a lag has position, he's probably going to be betting into us. I'd rather lead the action with a small feeler bet rather than have to ck/call a $300-400 turn bet and ck/fold to a river shove. I think it's close which line is ideal, but I'd rather lead or lead/fold than ck/call.

If villain seems skilled, a small feeler bet isn't generating a fold. A shove may not do that either, but I do agree with you that firing the last bullet is how I'd go out here. Shove and hope.
 
If villain seems skilled, a small feeler bet isn't generating a fold. A shove may not do that either, but I do agree with you that firing the last bullet is how I'd go out here. Shove and hope.
I guess I should have specified, I feel like a turn feeler bet has the best chance of getting us to showdown without having to put in all our money with what is now not a super strong hand. I'm not really expecting villain to ever fold here. Betting turn I think gives us the best option to get river to go ck/ck.
 
Pre-flop raise is fine oop against so many opponents.

Flop bet is too small in this sort of game. $175-190 is a much better move. Then again you said you put in the wrong bet size so you know that.

On the turn we have to ask ourselves; What hand did utg limp with that could reasonably call the flop, that now have us beat? A9/A5 are really the only two possibilities. More likely, villain has 66-88. While you may be beat, I still don't really think this is a board that you can check at, given villain's line. If he's a good player like you say, he will almost certainly take the lead if checked to him, especially since our hand screams of TT-KK.

I like the idea of a feeler bet here. The pot is currently ~475. I'd bet around $175. Your smallish bet on the flop doesn't make villain necessarily believe you are making this sort of bet here.

If raised I'd fold.
I agree with this thought. Though the previous street was a little underbet, I think I solid blocker bet of ~$175 could work nicely. If popped, should be a tank fold situation
 
I guess I should have specified, I feel like a turn feeler bet has the best chance of getting us to showdown without having to put in all our money with what is now not a super strong hand. I'm not really expecting villain to ever fold here. Betting turn I think gives us the best option to get river to go ck/ck.

Gotcha. I wouldn't ever find a fold here having taken his line and with the pot sizing, but saving some stack at showdown would be great.
 
So now we're $665 effective, with $465 in the pot, right?

That ace didn't necessarily hit UTG. How many hands do you honestly think he could have that would limp/call preflop and flat that flop, and would improve on an ace? It's not impossible, but it is very limited. We're talking maybe A5/S9 (both very weird hands for a limp/call UTG), 34 (super-weird preflop), AQ/AK (both weird for the limp and the flop call), or a slowplayed AA (weird, but makes a bit of sense when you think about the preflop spot he was in).

On the other hand, his range could include a ton of other hands that weren't already sets and didn't improve on the ace. They'd all probably shut down now, though, if we bet. The pot's too big and stacks too small to try to steal, and the ace made our hand if we were just swinging with AK or AQ.

But here's a thought: That $120 bet on the flop looks kinda weak or scared, especially because it's exactly twice the preflop raise amount. It looks like we are forcing ourselves to c-bet, and we know we have to bet more on this round than preflop, but we don't want to put much more money in the pot. It reeks of someone who's not very confident in his hand. A check on that ace would look like we're ready to give up—like, say, someone who has a modest big pair and just shit himself on an overcard. Of course, we know the pot is too big to check/fold and certainly not to a LAG, of all people, on a card that seems unlikely to improve him based on his line.

On that note, I think I might rescind my plan to shove any turn, and instead check into the LAG. The goal is to entice a bet that he might make with a lot of steal hands in addition to a pair of aces or better. I mean, let's face it, we're not getting called by a worse hand at this point, and we're not getting away from this massive pot we created. If he has a better hand, we're getting stacked. If he has a worse hand and we bet, we're probably only winning what's out there. But if he has a worse hand and we check, we may even get him to pay us off for stacks in spot where he's drawing dead or nearly so.

My only point of hesitation is this: He's a LAG and has taken a passive line with us. That's a little strange. And I might be a lot more wary about further involvement if this had started off as a small pot. Unfortunately, it didn't, and we now only have about 1.5 times the pot in play.

Worse hands may not call but they certainly may bet if checked to.

This is precisely the reason to check with the intention of calling. We're committed to this pot already. If he has us beat, he has us beat. Our main concern now should be getting the money in against his worse hands in addition to his better hands. The best way to do that is to check.

Bet/folding would be madness here. We started off with an SPR of 3:1 and are now at less than 1.5:1. Building up giant pots and then abandoning them is one of the most exploitable and expensive mistakes in big-bet poker.
 
This is precisely the reason to check with the intention of calling. We're committed to this pot already. If he has us beat, he has us beat. Our main concern now should be getting the money in against his worse hands in addition to his better hands. The best way to do that is to check.

The difference of opinion that we have about the turn line boils down to this. I think hero can still get away from this hand in certain situations, whereas you don't. If you think you're absolutely committed then I agree with your line, but I feel that we aren't 100% committed at this point.
 
The difference of opinion that we have about the turn line boils down to this. I think hero can still get away from this hand in certain situations, whereas you don't. If you think you're absolutely committed then I agree with your line, but I feel that we aren't 100% committed at this point.

What are those certain situations?

The only way I can see getting away from this is check/folding the turn. If we put any more money in at all, we'll be looking at a pot that's bigger than our remaining stack, and we're against a LAG of all things. And if we check/fold, we're basically handing him this large pot regardless of his hand.

If you are still looking for any excuse to get away from your hand in spots like this, you're hemorrhaging money.
 
I don't think bet/fold is bad line in this specific instance. It's not typical, but I think if we bet into villain on turn and he shoves, knowing his image probably means that he has it here, OP did state that villain is the best player at the table. Also, if we bet here we may get a fold from 66-88 but we may get called down light with something like K9.

I don't think check/fold is a good line here, but again, I feel if villain is betting he's doing it with the goods in this instance because hero has really narrowed his range from the way he played the hand. And then we may end up check/calling for $350 against AT when we could have led out a much smaller blocking bet and probably only get flatted.
 
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ck/ck turn would be ideal, but my point is if the pot is $475 and a lag has position, he's probably going to be betting into us. I'd rather lead the action with a small feeler bet rather than have to ck/call a $300-400 turn bet and ck/fold to a river shove. I think it's close which line is ideal, but I'd rather lead or lead/fold than ck/call.

As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat; or play a poker hand. After reading @ushallnotraise's explanation, this makes sense, and I actually don't mind taking this line sometimes, either, (i.e. don't always check an overpair just because an A hits the turn), but I still think I prefer to check in this hand on the turn with the stack sizes and being OOP.

I'm curious to know from @ushallnotraise, if you lead the turn with a feeler bet of $175 and then get raised, would you then fold?
 
I don't think bet/fold is bad line in this specific instance. It's not typical, but I think if we bet into villain on turn and he shoves, knowing his image probably means that he has it here, OP did state that villain is the best player at the table. Also, if we bet here we may get a fold from 66-88 but we may get called down light with something like K9.

I don't think check/fold is a good line here, but again, I feel if villain is betting he's doing it with the goods in this instance because hero has really narrowed his range from the way he played the hand. And then we may end up check/calling for $350 against AT when we could have led out a much smaller blocking bet and probably only get flatted.

In what universe does UTG have AT here? It's hard for me to see him having any ace at all, but AT especially.

My main problem with your plan is that you want to put more money into an already-giant pot and then see what happens. By the time your $175 bet and his $175 call go in, there will be $815 in the pot with only $490 effective left to play. Honestly, how big does the pot have to be relative to your stack before you're committed with QQ in a spot where your opponent has to have a set or an oddball ace to beat you?
 
In what universe does UTG have AT here? It's hard for me to see him having any ace at all, but AT especially.

I see stuff like that on a regular basis at 2/5. And they say poker's dead :D Also, I agree that A9/A5 are the only really likely A's that villain would have. I could see AT/AJ here in some instances, though.

Honestly, how big does the pot have to be relative to your stack before you're committed with QQ in a spot where your opponent has to have a set or an oddball ace to beat you?

It's not how big the pot is. In most situations(and maybe in this one) I am calling my stack off. I think this particular hand is very read dependent, and based on the information given I think a turn blocker bet to see a cheaper showdown is the most optimal solution. Do I fold to a shove? Maybe. It's honestly tough to say not being in the specific instance. Against RandomLAG_002? Probably not.


I'm curious to know from @ushallnotraise, if you lead the turn with a feeler bet of $175 and then get raised, would you then fold?

I think I answered that in this post here, but just to specify, while it's read dependent, based on the info given about villain I don't hate a fold here.
 
I see stuff like that on a regular basis at 2/5. And they say poker's dead :D Also, I agree that A9/A5 are the only really likely A's that villain would have. I could see AT/AJ here in some instances, though.

Sure, in some instances, like if our opponent is a total donkey or is drunk. But he's not. He's a skilled player who is probably not calling off $180 and getting involved in a stack-committing pot with a hand as weak as AT/AJ unimproved. Nothing's really impossible, but some things are unlikely enough to be negligible.

It's not how big the pot is.

I can't get behind this kind of thinking. The size of the pot matters all the time, and it matters more and more as the pot gets larger.

In this case, the pot is almost the size of our stack already. That has to be a major factor in our decisions, or we're not giving proper weight to extremely relevant information. We can be sure that UTG is giving it proper weight, being a LAG whose bread and butter is abandoned pots.

Anyway, I think you and I are on very different trains of thought here and probably won't agree on how to play this hand. I'd like to ask you about one more thing, though.

I'd rather lead the action with a small feeler bet rather than have to ck/call a $300-400 turn bet and ck/fold to a river shove.

Would you ever take the bolded line with stack and pot sizes being what they are? From the way you phrase the post, it seems like that's your alternative play to the blocker bet.
 
I can't get behind this kind of thinking. The size of the pot matters all the time, and it matters more and more as the pot gets larger.

Sorry, let me phrase that better. The pot size isn't the absolute determining factor in this hand. Of course it matters. Sometimes my brain processes faster than my hand can type and you end up with sentences like that, haha.

Would you ever take the bolded line with stack and pot sizes being what they are? From the way you phrase the post, it seems like that's your alternative play to the blocker bet.

Probably not. I sigh call. That's why I like the blocker bet a lot better, I can find a fold with a smaller bet. The point I was making was I'd rather find a fold with a bet of $175 than try to have to justify one after bloating the pot so much. And I probably couldn't find one in that instance.
 
Probably not. I sigh call. That's why I like the blocker bet a lot better, I can find a fold with a smaller bet. The point I was making was I'd rather find a fold with a bet of $175 than try to have to justify one after bloating the pot so much. And I probably couldn't find one in that instance.

Why are you designing your play around leaving yourself room to fold?
 
Ok action.

I don't like the turn, I can see villain floating the flop with A2, A5 and A9. After some thought hero wimps out and checks.

Villain quickly fires out $325

Hero quickly realises he deserves that with his play.

Next move?
 
Check raise shove looks very strong, you don't have much fold equity though with what you have left after the call. But I think it is the best play.

If not fold, rack up the rest of your chips and leave because the rest of the table is going to see blood in the water.
 
If not fold, rack up the rest of your chips and leave because the rest of the table is going to see blood in the water.

I will say this. Most of the table wouldn't even know how to target me if I fold too set face up. Not that I'd ever do that, but a fold wouldn't mean anything to most of them.
 
I'm tempted to check-raise shove to spare us any more needlessly difficult decisions on the river.

However, I think we'll lose value when Villain has underpairs or other hands he's bluffing because he can't win a showdown. There are really not many hands that we beat that Villain will call with. If we shove here, it stands to to fold out hands we beat (basically all bluffs) but of course not strong enough to fold out hands that beat us (except maybe KK, which would be kinda bizarre at this point).

I think I'm going to stick with the "let him hang himself" line of check/call, check/call. If we lose a bit of value from 9x, TT, and JJ when he checks back the river, so be it. I doubt we're getting much out of them anyway.
 
Pre flop good size,

I always choose to make the bet around $125 - $150 on the flop for this exact situation. If you bet like $200 you turn your hand face up. Think about what range you would cbet $200 with here and why? The board is super dry. You are way ahead way behind at this point.

I think bet folding is the best line on the turn. Which I expect a fair amount of the time. Betting commits you to the pot, and I doubt at 2/5 a good LAG ever thinks he has fold equity here. His range is heavily weighted towards small pocket pairs, he is not calling with missed pocket pairs on the flop in such a large pot, and he isn't turning his hand into a bluff on the turn. Your range is strong, and easily hits the Ace often enough that he is never 3b jamming with a hand that doesn't beat AQ/AK.

As played I think you now have talked your self into check calling turn and river (Edit: for the reasons Jim mentioned). This guys whole MO is to float light and take pots away.
 
With your $665 behind, and your 120 bet on the flop, villians bet of 325 into pot of 485 seems very polarized - to me either he's hoping you have a big ace (and he's got that beat) and trying to induce a shove, or he's trying to rep the A, pushing you off a hand like the QQ hand you have. It doesnt strike me like a value bet with a weak A, like A3s or A4s. Maybe a semi bluff w 9x of clubs. Maybe a float/bluff.

If you think hes the type of player capable of bluffing , I think you have to shove here sometimes.
 
I think if UTG was trying to get value from a set or straight or Aces up he would bet smaller, like $200. Then the river shove is very easy and giving you great odds to call with a very wide range of hands that he is still beating.

This really feels like a "go away" bet. He floated, got the scare card he was looking for and is now trying to steel this pot.

I still think he has a 1 pair hand that he knows is no good more times than not.
 
He probably put you on AK and sees your bets as continuation bets. He probably has A9, A5, A2, maybe even suited. He is hoping you do have AK now (figures you were waiting for the A yourself), and bets to induce your shove. Maybe. What do I know? I play 25c/25c at home :).
 

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